Monday, April 29, 2019

When did Charles Manson become a suspect?


According to Bugliosi, Charlie did not become a suspect until mid-October at the earliest, when his name popped up in the Hinman murder investigation:


From Helter Skelter(paperback edition):

pg102
Oct 12, 1969:  Kitty Lutesinger questioned by LASO detectives Paul Whiteley and Charles Guenther in Inyo County.  She reveals Manson had sent Beausoleil to Hinman's house.

pg98
"The LaBianca report, closed out on Oct 15(1969) ... It listed eleven suspects, the last of whom was one MANSON, CHARLES."

pg119
Nov 12, 1969:  Al Springer names Manson as a TLB suspect in an interview with LASO detectives.
 

                               Al Springer(left front)  Danny DeCarlo(middle rear)
                               (One Slave to supply the weapons and speed, and another Slave to rat
                               them out.  Maybe we should call them "the Sheriff's Slaves")

pg145
Nov. 17, 1969:  Tate and LaBianca detectives hear the details of Susan Atkin's jailhouse confession.  "...the detectives were now convinced that the Tate and LaBianca cases had been "solved." "


The Tate detectives, in the person of Sgt. Jess Buckles,  famously missed their big opportunity to close the Tate case early after they ignored evidence given to them by Hinman homicide investigator Whitely on Aug 10, the day after the Cielo crime scene was discovered.  But the LaBianca investigators were apparently also incompetent:


Bugliosi, pg101
"One of the LaBianca detectives would later admit that he and his fellow officers should have checked with LASO homicide detectives in mid-August to see if they had any similar murders.  But it wasn't until October 15, after most of their other leads had evaporated, that they did so."

So the LASO Hinman homicide detectives Whitely and Guenther DID approach the Tate detectives the very next day on Aug 10nth with their suspicions, but no one saw the similarities in the LaBianca case until nine weeks later.  Hmmmm....  Methinks Charlie wasn't the only one doing the "me-so-stupid" routine.

 This poster expressed it perfectly:

www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=14352935&postID=114602876191845153
by the commentator "Joe"
"...After the LASO Homicide investigators went to the Tate autopsy to tell them about their nearly identical crime scene in Topanga and that their main suspect was currently in the slammer, but lived with a bunch of hippies at the Spahn Ranch, led by a guy who thought he was Jesus, why the hell didn't they go directly to the ranch to question said hippies about the Hinman murder?
... they stayed away from it like it was a quarantined government facility.
And the raid of the (Aug)16th, if we're to believe the "official story" was carried out by LASO cops who weren't even aware of the Hinman death or the suspicions held by their colleagues at homicide about Manson.   Something's missing here. Anyone got an idea what?"


There are, however, other indications that they knew about Charles Manson much earlier than they claim:

--The Operator: David Geffen Builds, Buys, and Sells the New Hollywood by Tom King c.2000

pg120 (source is an interview with Geffen)
"The city of Los Angeles was shaken on August 9 when a hit team led by a psychopath and aspiring songwriter named Charles Manson stormed the Beverly Hills home of movie director Roman Polanski, killing his pregnant wife, actress Sharon Tate, and four of her guests.

"The next day, Geffen visited his friend Lou Adler, who had a house at the end of Carbon Beach, a fancy stretch of sandy property in Malibu. Geffen and Adler walked along the beach but stopped when they came upon Terry Melcher and his girlfriend, actress Candice Bergen. They were standing in front of an elegant beach house owned by Melcher and his mother, Doris Day.

                               Candice Bergen

"Geffen and Adler listened as a frightened Melcher and Bergen told them that they suspected that they might have been the murderer's real targets. Melcher, who was an independent producer at the Beatles' Apple Records label, had auditioned Manson but opted not to record him; what's more, until just a few months earlier, he and Bergen had lived in the house where Tate and the others had been murdered."

                                          Geffen (right)

If Melcher and Bergen already suspected "the next day" that they were the real target, they must have had a pretty good idea who the suspect was.  Did they ever go to the police with their suspicions?    (Melcher was not officially interviewed by cops until late November.)


--Charles Manson is the subject of an FBI memo, dated Oct 24, 1969, from the SAC(Special Agent in Charge)/Los Angeles to the office of the Director of the FBI, which states:

"It is reported that on or about 7/2/69 subject purchased a short barrel and a nine millimeter hand gun at Van Nuys, California."

This is the first I've heard Charlie buying two handguns.  At any rate, this implies that Charlie was being surveilled as early as July, 1969.


--Officers were already asking Dennis Wilson about the Bernard Crowe shooting in July or August of 1969, so by this time they probably knew all about Charlie's involvement in that attempted murder case:

www.mansonblog.com/2017/01/when-did-dennis-wilson-finally-sever.html
Cielodrive.com said...
"From the progress report... She[Stephanie Schram] stated that she had gone with Manson to the home of DENNIS WILSON at 14000 Sunset Boulevard, West Los Angeles(in August 1969). While at the Wilson residence, there was a conversation between Manson and Wilson regarding a man who died from a gunshot wound to the stomach. Dennis Wilson was interviewed by officers from an unknown police agency about this matter. During the conversation, Manson indicated that he had been the one that had killed the unknown person."

                                         Dennis Wilson


--Roman by Roman Polanski, 1985 book:

pg315
"Helter Skelter takes the LAPD to task for failing to follow-up a lead that might have exposed the Manson "family" earlier--a lead based on similarities between the deaths at Cielo Drive and that of Gary Hinman, a music teacher murdered ten days earlier, also by Manson's followers. Bob Helder was well aware of this however. He told me, very soon after we first met, of a possible lead involving a bunch of hippies living in the Chatsworth area under a commune leader, "a crazy guy who calls himself Jesus Christ." "

"Very soon" probably meant in the first week, so they already had Charlie in their sights for the Tate murder by then.  But they never followed up on this lead?  Of course they would have.

                                         Lt. Helder (right)


So the question becomes "Was someone ordering cops to 'go slow' in their investigation?  And why?"

By the evidence, it does looks like the investigation was being hindered.  As to the why, there may have have been several reasons:

--the covert operators couldn't make up their minds whether to pin the blame on the Panthers or the Hippies, until they went with the Hippies

--they wanted protracted trauma and drawn-out fear from the public to maximize the desired outcome of "hatin' on the hippies and lovin' on the Yorty/Reagan/Nixon law-and-order administration."   Elections were less than a year away.

Though of course these questions can never be settled conclusively.  And some say if you linger too long on these mysteries, you risk talking yourself into a circle of madness.

"Forget it, Jake.  It's Hollywood."





Special Thanks to DebS for her help compiling this thread!



66 comments:

SixtiesRockRules! said...

Excellent, concise post which brings up one of the big questions in this whole sordid story, "why did it take more than three months from the TLB murders for the LAPD to discover the perpetrators?" Personally, I do believe the spahn ranch had been under surveillance by the sheriff's office (at a minimum, and probably also by the local FBI). Manson was very likely some kind of informant for law enforcement. Obviously, any kind of official documentation that would have proven the relationship between manson and the feds (or the state police) needed to be concealed and/or destroyed before charlie was allowed to be unveiled as the "cult leader/mastermind" in the newspapers and on the tv news. This is one of the factors that explains why the info provided by LASO officers guenther and whiteley-who really broke the case-wasn't immediately acted upon.

AstroCreep said...

Let me guess, the Altamont stabbing was the CIA too?

I’m a firm believer that timing is a huge part of everything in life. Had the fuzz been out to Spahn Ranch interviewing the family, it’s likely that blabbermouth Susan wouldn’t have given up the goods.

Also, the fuzz had no real evidence other than a similar crime had been committed. The weapon was a 9mm in Hinman, a .22 in Tate so aside from the writing on the walls, there’s no real link. Hinman also wasn’t stabbed 41 times or to the degree that the TLB victims had been stabbed, although he was stabbed.

You’re also making a huge leap as to “they must have had a pretty good idea who the real suspect was” regarding Melcher and Bergen. If I moved from my home today and a few months later a family was killed in my home, I’d have to wonder too if I was the real target. And then I would start to piece together who it may have been. I think that’s normal psychology and any reasonable person would feel the same.

The fuzz also had a murder weapon in their custody very early on yet we don’t infer some huge plot twist CIA motive the bury the gun. It’s not even incompetence as far as I’m concerned rather, every recovered weapon wasn’t thought of as “possible Tate murder weapon” by the police. The only person who drew that conclusion was the father of the boy who found it- and only because he knew the description after reading about it.

Peter said...

Wasn't it during the pretrial that Bugluosi or someone said that they had checked the records and had never seen any other instance where there had been writing on the walls in the victims blood ever.

cielodrivecom said...

Is three months really that long?

ColScott said...

Melcher was a producer for Apple? News to me

Matthew Record said...

I read Terry Melcher's Wikipedia and other biography pages and didn't see anything about Apple Records. I never heard of that and if there was a tie between Terry Melcher and the Beatles, I would think it would be all over the Manson saga and discussions.

BlueJayWay said...


https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/doris-day-interviews-sir-paul-231118

David said...

Col Scott said: "Melcher was a producer for Apple? News to me"


"He then became the Beatles' sub-publisher for the US, Canada and Japan, helped to promote the Monterey Pop Festival and enjoyed a life of extreme hedonism."

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2004/nov/23/guardianobituaries.artsobituaries

DebS said...

According to a Radar Online article Governor Newsom has reversed the parole board's decision to release Beausoleil.

https://radaronline.com/exclusives/2019/04/manson-family-killer-bobby-beausoleil-rejected-parole/

starship said...

Ok, I don't have time to read this yet, so all I'll say now is, GOOD QUESTION!

ColScott said...

Hinman's cousin. Imagine

ColScott said...

Blue Jay Way- Your link adds nothing and was pointless

David- a sub publisher is just a company that collects royalties and is DEF not a producer- night and day! And also I doubt he was even that

prefeteria said...

“There was no doubt Apple Music Publishing was seriously successful but, much to the confusion of many hard-working people in the industry, Terry Do-ran was appointed managing director. Terry was Brian's old partner in his car company—a car dealer with no experience whatsoever in the music industry and even less in publishing. But he was into music, as were most of Brian's crowd from Liverpool and, given the timing, he couldn’t go wrong. Though he did make some silly decisions—such as selling George Harrison's song catalogue off to Doris Day's son, Terry Melcher, who produced the Byrds for CBS. The Beatles had been introduced to Melcher through Derek Taylor, among whose clients were the Beach Boys and the Byrds. To counteract his lack of industry knowledge, Terry hired Mike Berry, a former assistant at Sparta Music Publishing to do the copyrights and offer advice.”

Excerpt From
Magical Mystery Tours
Tony Bramwell & Rosemary Kingsland

starviego said...

DebS said...
According to a Radar Online article Governor Newsom has reversed the parole board's decision to release Beausoleil.

I hate how the politicians are always scoring cheap brownie points on the backs of the geriatric incarcerated ones. Something happened to some people in Hollywood a long time ago, and they just can't forgive. Enough already! Let the poor guy go!

David said...

Col,

I was just trying to help. That is all I have ever read on the Apple connection. I was agreeing with you.

David said...

But he did apparently produce a band called Grapefruit or The Grapefruit on his Equinox label (per what else I read) and there isa connection between them and Apple or The Beatles. If you really care I will go find that.

Doug said...

Grapefruit also was George Alexander's band. George was born Alexander Young and, was oldest of the Young brothers (including George - Easybeats and Malcolm and Angus - AC/DC).

Ajerseydevil said...

You gotta figure Bobby & Leslie both at there age after finally making parole just to have it taken away probably won't be to far from joining Charlie 50 year's for one murder each they should of let em out I don't have much fear of a 69 year old woman or 71 year old man

David said...

Doug,

I was an aware of that. It is an intriguing side issue: was Melcher Beatles-related and did Mason know? If he did and given the millennial aspects of his whole thing (and I don’t mean 30 year olds) it is at least interesting.

CATSCRADLE77 said...

An article from 1965 that I have has Jay Sebring being a record producer before he was a hairstylist. They also call him a karate expert. All this while he was with Steve McQueen and his wife on an island in Hawaii.

So I really don't believe three quarters of what I read...

AstroCreep said...

In regards to parole being denied- NO POLITICIAN is going to be the person to let out one of the family. The case got way too much publicity and as far as I’m concerned, you reap what you sew. They wanted to shock the world and that they did. You can’t have it both ways whether that’s fair or unfair.

Trying to equate their (the family’s) sentences to some gang banger who pleas to a lesser crime, who typically kills nobody that society places a value on, and is out walking the streets 8-12 years later isn’t the same, like it or not.

Some of these petitions have hundreds of thousands of signatures on them. That’s a LOT of potential votes cast for someone else. But the bigger point is this: the politician is working “for the people” and imposing their will.

Peter said...

"Something happened to some people in Hollywood a long time ago"

Nice.

"But the bigger point is this: the politician is working “for the people” and imposing their will."

It's cute that you think that Astro.

AstroCreep said...

Peter said “it’s cute that you think that Astro”

Personally I don’t think that- politicians are scumbags. What I personally believe is that a politician (in order to free one of the family) would have to take the position of defending their actions- which, when several hundred thousand votes are on the line, will never ever happen.

Idealistically, the politician is representing the people.

Ajerseydevil said...

Astrocreep I don't see how you can consider the Hinman murder part of as you put it a crime to shock the world even if one buys into the whole Helter Skelter reasoning behind the T.L murders the Hinman murder had nothing to do with that I don't wanna come across as a Bobby supporter but he was a 19 year old kid at the time who made a horrible decision I just believe he's probably paid his dues as sure as hell don't consider him a danger to anybody that's just stupid

Matthew Record said...

Melcher again acted as producer for the Byrds on Ballad of Easy Rider, their eighth album, released in November 1969 (see 1969 in music).[8] The album peaked at No. 36 on the Billboard charts. At the time it was met with mixed reviews but is today regarded as one of the band's stronger albums from the latter half of their career.[9]

In the early 1970s, Melcher was the producer of the Byrds' 9th and 10th albums, (Untitled) and Byrdmaniax. But the results on Byrdmaniax were not well received; band member Gene Parsons referred to the album as "Melcher's Folly", due to his heavy overdubs of horns and strings, done without the knowledge of the band. During this time, he dabbled in real estate and served as the executive producer on his mother's CBS series, The Doris Day Show. He later recorded two solo albums, Terry Melcher and Royal Flush.[10] Writing of the former in Christgau's Record Guide: Rock Albums of the Seventies (1981), Robert Christgau said,

Most will find this producer's daydream sterile at best and noxious at worst, but I like the song about his shrink and am fascinated by his compulsion to defend his Manson connections. With the requisite show of wealth and taste, he insists that he's only a spectator — why, he wouldn't even know about the hand jive if it weren't for Soul Train. Alternate title: It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Watching.[11]

In 1985, Terry co-produced the cable show, Doris Day's Best Friends, and worked as the director and vice president of the Doris Day Animal Foundation. He and his mother, to whom he remained close throughout his life, also co-owned the Cypress Inn, a small hotel in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California.[10]

In 1988, Melcher earned a Golden Globe nomination for co-writing the song "Kokomo" with John Phillips, Scott McKenzie and Mike Love. Recorded by the Beach Boys, the song was featured in the 1988 Tom Cruise film Cocktail, and hit No. 1 (the band's career fourth overall) on the Billboard Hot 100. The single was certified gold for U.S. sales of more than a million copies.[10] Melcher produced the band's 1992 studio record, Summer in Paradise, which was the first record produced digitally on Pro Tools.[citation needed] From Wikipedia

I see nothing about apple.

Matthew Record said...

I guess no elected official is going to allow the parole of a "family member". So it is not about whether someone is remorseful for their actions, if they are a danger to society etc. But isn't that the law for parole?

BlueJayWay said...

It’s misleading to call Melcher a staff Producer for Apple. But, Melcher was asked to produce an Apple artist making his association with Apple more than merely the publishing deal.

The link below is the Wikipedia page for Grapefruit that explains Melcher’s involvement with production and later remixing, including adding strings to a track originally produced by Lennon and McCartney.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit_(band)

Also, an announcement for the Apple/Melcher publishing deal was featured in the December 22, 1967 issue of Billboard magazine.

Peter said...

"I don't see how you can consider the Hinman murder part of as you put it a crime to shock the world even if one buys into the whole Helter Skelter reasoning behind the T.L murders the Hinman murder had nothing to do with that ..."

Except that they wrote "Political Piggy" on the wall with a paw print in Gary's Blood. Which leads to a question I've always wondered about. Why did Bobby go back and try to clean that off?

Peter said...

So if Manson had only actually killed Melcher, there would have been no Kokomo ? I would have been okay with that.

Chris Till said...

I'd forgotten the Apple/Equinox/Grapefruit/Melcher connection. As lifelong Beatlemaniac, I checked some of the Beatles books on my bookshelf.

From "The Beatles A to Z," Grapefruit: "First recording artists signed to Apple in January of 1967. Their name was suggested by John. The Beatles welcomed the new band to their company with a promotional party attended by such rock luminaries as Brian Jones and Donovan. The group consisted of... Since the company had not yet gotten off the ground, a record was never released up to the time the band left the label in 1968, though Paul did produce a promo film clip for the band." No listing for Melcher.

From Phillip Norman's "Shout!" "Terry Doran had made the first signing [to Apple]- a teenage group named Grapefruit and launched to the music press on a tide of Fortrum and Mason grapefruit in special presentation boxes." Nothing in index on Melcher.

Bob Spitz "The Beatles." Nothing in index on Grapefruit or Melcher.

My copies of "Apple to the Core" and "The Longest Cocktail Party in the World" do not have indices. Both of these are Apple-centric. I might have time to check them later.

I have a 1970 Simon & Schuster first edition of Yoko's "Grapefruit." Of course, no mention of Grapefruit (the band) or Melcher. It's a book of poetry or aphorisms, kind of.

As far a business relationship between Melcher, Equinox, the Beatles, and Apple, I suspect that "The Guardian"'s blanket statement, cited above, that the Melcher was the Beatles U.S. sub-publisher is misleading. Melcher was categorically not the U.S. publisher of Lennon & McCartney (d/b/a Northern Songs), George Harrison (d/b/a Harrisongs) or Ringo (I can't remember the name of his publishing company).

Publishing for the Melcher's label Equinox Records 1968 release of "Dear Delilah" is listed on its label as "Egg Music Publishers (In Association with Apple Music Ltd.)" through BMI. I assume Egg Music was one of Melcher's publishing companies, right? Egg Music Publishing is still listed on the BMI website, but no longer owns "Dear Delilah." From the BMI website, Egg Music seems to be now owned by Universal and still owns other George Alexander compositions. "Dear Delilah" is now administered by ASCAP and is wholly owned by Apple. Whether the original 1968 Equinox-Apple arrangement granted Equinox or Egg Music actual U.S. copyright of "Dear Delilah," I don't know. Perhaps the Apple/Equinox was more akin to a license or temporary copyright administration. I would reasonably assume that Equinox just licensed the "Dear Delilah" master for its release. Of "Dear Delilah"'s b-side, "Dead Boot," also written by George Alexander, but produced by Psychederek, I find no listing on either BMI or ASCAP.

I would love to read more on Equinox Records. To my knowledge, it is little-documented. The Mansonia books tend to refer to Gregg Jacobson as a "talent scout" for Melcher. I assume that, circa 1968, Jacobson was scouting for Equinox Records, Melcher's label of that time.

As far as the post's main assertion that law enforcement purposely failed to timely arrest the Manson gang, I don't believe it. While anything is possible, ordinary incompetence is perhaps a better explanation than conspiracy.

AstroCreep said...

Matthew Record- the parole board saw it that way, yes. And he was granted parole. That has nothing to do with the governors choice not to commute his sentence.

AstroCreep said...

Peter- ditto on Kokomo

David said...

Chris Till said: "I suspect that "The Guardian"'s blanket statement, cited above, that the Melcher was the Beatles U.S. sub-publisher is misleading."

Indeed, it appears to be backwards.

"TERRY MELCHER popped up in England and sold the publishing rights to all his American copyright songs to the BEATLES’ new music company, Apple. TERRY’s tunes include just about every hit that MARK LINDSAY has sung on the Raider recordings. Clever fella, that TERRY. P.S.: At press time, TERRY says he and his steady girl CANDY BERGEN are not wed—yet!"


Magazine: 16
Editor: Gloria Stavers
Published: April 1968
Volume: 9
Issue: 11
Publisher: 16 Magazine, Inc.
Pages: 36–37

grimtraveller said...

AstroCreep said...

the fuzz had no real evidence other than a similar crime had been committed

That alone should have been motivation for them to go down to Spahn to at least ask around. Even if they didn't do that, they should have at least talked to Bobby.
If they had gone to Spahn, they might have noticed the number of people there that might have been barefoot. Which might have triggered something in one of the investigating officer's minds about a bloody footprint or two being found at Cielo.

SixtiesRockRules! said...

which brings up one of the big questions in this whole sordid story, "why did it take more than three months from the TLB murders for the LAPD to discover the perpetrators?"

I don't think it's a big question at all. Why shouldn't it have taken some time ? Susan may have told her cellmates in confidence that the crime was meant to shock the world but that didn't translate to "we want to be caught, tell the world we did it, then die in the gas chamber."
From the time of the murders to the time of the LaBianca detectives' final report was 9 weeks. That's how long it took for Charlie to appear on the suspect list. 9 weeks. How many murders do you know of that have gone long beyond that before any headway is made ? 9 weeks is hardly signs of some CIA/FBI/LAPD conspiracy.
Yes, there are anomalies. Yes, there are unanswered questions. Yes there was some incompetence or rather, dismissiveness on the part of some investiigating officers.
But 9 weeks ?
In England the Yorkshire Ripper was at large for 6 years before being caught. The Black Panther was at large for almost 2 years. They still haven't convicted the Birmingham pub bombers from 1974. Zodiac has not been caught. And so on and so forth.
If only all cases were showing such signs of progress after 9 weeks !

beauders said...

Newsom is going to be President someday, he's not going to let any of them out. Now saying that Van Houten is a much different murderer/inmate than Beausoleil so if someone would release someone it would be her. Does anyone know about Davis' health? Does he have Alzheimer's? I just lost my mother to that disease and it was horrible, but I still wouldn't let him out. He lost his chance with me when he would not help the police in the Gaul/Sharp even though they said they would give him immunity if he was involved.

goomba said...

Unrelated to thread: HLN will air "Very Scary People", 2 hour episode with CM on 5/5,8 PM Central. Probably more of the same, but at 2 hours may have new video/photos.

grimtraveller said...

Peter said...

Wasn't it during the pretrial that Bugluosi or someone said that they had checked the records and had never seen any other instance where there had been writing on the walls in the victims blood ever

On page 230 of George Stimson's "Goodbye HS" he holds the opposite opinion and quotes an officer in 1969 saying that messages left in blood or lipstick at crime scenes wasn't at all unusual. He also gives the title of a book that goes into killers and the messages they leave at crimescenes.

AstroCreep said...

NO POLITICIAN is going to be the person to let out one of the family

George Deukmejian has already beaten NoPolitician to the punch.

a politician (in order to free one of the family) would have to take the position of defending their actions

Their opponents would no doubt cast it in that light but the whole issue is a lot more nuanced than that. At the very heart of parole is the notion that the perp has done wrong which is why they are where they are in the first place. The parole boards don't defend the actions of murderers nor do they pretend to do so. And in the case of ex-Family members, whatever decisions come today come on the back of close to 35 years of rejections {excepting Steve Grogan who had 8~ish}.

Ajerseydevil said...

I just believe he's probably paid his dues as sure as hell don't consider him a danger to anybody that's just stupid

I suspect that when a parolee is said to still constitute a danger or be a risk, it's not always strictly their future actions that are held in mind, but also what they might inspire among some members of the public.

Chris Till said...

As lifelong Beatlemaniac, I checked some of the Beatles books on my bookshelf

I checked through the 39 I have and the only one that mentions Melcher is David Quantick's "Revolution" which is about the making of the White album. And there, it is not in relation to the Beatles, but to Charlie, once saying Dennis Wilson introduced them and once mentioning that Cielo was where Terry used to live. There are lots of possible avenues where Melcher and the Beatles could have hooked up but I find it interesting that he simply doesn't figure in their story. My initial reaction was the same as the Col's.

From "The Beatles A to Z," Grapefruit: "First recording artists signed to Apple in January of 1967

That would be '68. Apple hatched as a thought after Brian Epstein's death during the summer of love.

Terry Doran

He's "the man from the motor trade" in "She's leaving home."

As far as the post's main assertion that law enforcement purposely failed to timely arrest the Manson gang, I don't believe it. While anything is possible, ordinary incompetence is perhaps a better explanation than conspiracy

As I'm reading a post for the first time, I'll try to guess who has written it. Some people are very obvious. Starviego is one of them. One has to credit their persistence !

AstroCreep said...

GrimTraveller said-

“Their opponents would no doubt cast it in that light but the whole issue is a lot more nuanced than that. At the very heart of parole is the notion that the perp has done wrong which is why they are where they are in the first place. The parole boards don't defend the actions of murderers nor do they pretend to do so. And in the case of ex-Family members, whatever decisions come today come on the back of close to 35 years of rejections {excepting Steve Grogan who had 8~ish}.”

You’re correct- my point being the gov would be choosing the release of a murderer over the ‘voice’ people. Which immediately places the gov NOT on the side of the people. Any decision to release family members (in the eyes of the public) will be seen as taking the side of the criminal. Imagine the press conference-

PRESS: “There are 300,000 signatures on this petition not to release Bobby, why did you release him?”

GOV: “He’s really sorry for his crimes and finally, after 50 years has shown remorse in the eyes of the parole board... plus he probably won’t do it again because he’s old... oh yeah, and gang bangers only usually serve 8-12 years so there’s that”

It’ll never happen.

Chris Till said...

Grim said: "There are lots of possible avenues where Melcher and the Beatles could have hooked up but I find it interesting that he simply doesn't figure in their story."

The connection between the Beatles and Byrds was Derek Taylor, who did PR work for the Byrds after doing the same for the Beatles. According to Derek Taylor, the Beatles attended Byrds recording sessions. Melcher, of course, produced the Byrds first two classic albums in 1965.

Here's Derek Taylor in his book "It Was 20 Years Ago Today" on the Beatles and Byrds: "I had sent copies of the Byrds' first album to the Beatles, and when I went with them to England in 1965 they met the Beatles who took a great shine to them and always contacted them immediately [sic] they hit Los Angeles on tour, attending Byrds recording sessions, exchanging riffs and tricks and innovations." Whether these were the 1965 Melcher/Byrds sessions or later albums not produced by Melcher, I do not know. I suppose someone could compare the recording dates of the Byrds first two albums and Beatles gigs in L.A.

Us Beatlemaniacs would also have to wonder if Melcher was at the famous August 1965 Beatles/Byrds/Peter Fonda Benedict Canyon LSD pool party.

Grim said, about Apple signing Grapefruit: "That would be '68. Apple hatched as a thought after Brian Epstein's death during the summer of love."

That was exactly what I thought, that it must have been 1968. But... my understanding, which is not thorough, is that Grapefruit was signed to Apple Publishing, a pre-Apple Records entity. Whether Grapefruit also signed to Apple Records too, I do not know. Apple, that beautiful ill-fated venture, had many arms. Apparently, Apple Publishing predated Apple Records?

Someone must have a complete set of 1967-1968 "New Musical Express" to check for the date of the Grapefruit promotional party, right?!

Matthew Record said...

AstroCreep said...

Matthew Record- the parole board saw it that way, yes. And he was granted parole. That has nothing to do with the governors choice not to commute his sentence

I am very aware of that. Not sure how my post made you think otherwise. Maybe I didn't express my thoughts very clear.
I just think that no matter how many times a Manson family member is granted parole, no elected official is going to let it pass. It would be political suicide. The governor can always go back to Section 2281 of the California Code under Commitment Offense. It pretty much describes the TLB murders. It seems like cruel and unusual punishment to put these people through the parole hearings and offering them hope, knowing the governor will reverse it anyway.
There was a really good post by David in January about parole. If you click parole on the right menu it is the first post.

David said...

Chris Till said: "******the date of the Grapefruit promotional party, right?!"

The Hanover Grand, London, 17 January 1968.

Chris Till said...

Said David:
"The Hanover Grand, London, 17 January 1968."

Stunningly quick research. Thank you.

In its entirety, Apple Corps. was such a beautiful, but ill-fated, company. I mean... it's still around, running Beatles business, dealing with Apple Inc. trademark infringements, etc. But the original concept was a shining example of Summer of Love utopianism.

grimtraveller said...

Chris Till said...

The connection between the Beatles and Byrds was Derek Taylor

That was one of the connections I was thinking of. His book "As time goes by" is an odd read, part tooth pulling exercise, part classic of the genre.

Whether these were the 1965 Melcher/Byrds sessions or later albums not produced by Melcher, I do not know. I suppose someone could compare the recording dates of the Byrds first two albums and Beatles gigs in L.A.

Harrison and McCartney did attend a Byrds recording session in '65 and Terry Melcher was there. From Johnny Rogan's extraordinary 735 page tome "Timeless flight revisited":
A few days after the Palladium comeback, the group returned to the studio on 1 September in an attempt to complete their third single. They had recently cut a promising B-side, Gene Clark’s “She Don’t Care About Time’, and had just selected “The Times They Are A-Changin’’ as their next Dylan A-side. The session proved one of the most eventful of their career, thanks to the surprise arrival of George Harrison and Paul McCartney, still buzzing from the recent LSD extravaganza back in Beverly Hills. Dozens of fans waited outside Columbia Records studios on Sunset, only to miss Harrison, who arrived in Derek Taylor’s unostentatious Simca car.
Heading straight for the recording booth, Harrison was introduced to Terry Melcher, then waved to Crosby through the glass partition separating the musicians from the control room. The Byrds were over-eager to impress, but their attempt at ‘The Times They Are
A-Changin’’ was not proving fruitful. Since recording the song for Columbia at the end of June, they had performed the number in England, but still felt uncomfortable with the arrangement. McGuinn had adopted a more irreverent, ironic vocal which only served to drain the song of its polemical thrust. Melcher hastily faded the track and attempted to boost everyone’s confidence by playing George ‘She Don’t Care About Time’, which the Byrds had successfully completed the previous week. Turning to Taylor, Harrison remarked, “Don’t they phrase beautifully? Listen to the clever work in the chorus...”


grimtraveller said...

2/2

During a break in the session, Paul McCartney arrived outside in a black limousine, pursued by dozens of cars. After dodging the outstretched arms of fans, he was ushered into the building and joined his fellow Beatle in the recording studio. Further work
commenced on the Byrds’ Dylan cover, but the presence of the two Beatles proved too distracting. “It was sloppier than anything on the first album in terms of playing,” Melcher complained. Towards the end of the session, the Byrds spent time trying to perfect a harmonica part, even inviting George and Paul to have a go at the instrument.
“It’s a pity John’s not here,” McCartney noted. “He would have been glad to help.” After Jim and Gene laid down a harmonica break, Michael Clarke stepped up with one of his own, which turned out best. Looking on, Dickson was surprised to see the drummer outpointing Clark and McGuinn in front of the Beatles. As they finished up, Harrison listened back to the rudimentary recording of “The Times They Are A-Changin’’ and was impressed enough to ask for a dub version. “If I know anything about record companies, it won't be released until Christmas at least,” he joked, not realizing that the single would never actually appear.


Us Beatlemaniacs would also have to wonder if Melcher was at the famous August 1965 Beatles/Byrds/Peter Fonda Benedict Canyon LSD pool party

Given that the above account stated that George met Terry at that September recording session, I'd doubt it.

That was exactly what I thought, that it must have been 1968

On January 17th 1967, the Beatles were all in the studio from 7.30pm until into the following morning. That was the evening that David Mason recorded his piccolo trumpet parts for "Penny Lane." He says that although Paul was mainly in charge of that particular session, the other 3 were there and all dressed in funny clothes. He says he asked if they'd been filming and John apparently said "no, we always dress like this, mate !"

Apparently, Apple Publishing predated Apple Records?

It may well have done. The Apple boutique predated Apple records, that came into being in late '67. But everything Apple really only began becoming a real entity after Brian Epstein's death in August '67.

the original concept was a shining example of Summer of Love utopianism

Indeed. They had an eye on succesful American independents and also in London, independent studios with better equipment than EMI, Abbey Road were springing up all over the place. Those were heady times and though they got tired of "playing" businessmen, I suspect that their example of how not to do it was an inspiration for independent labels owned by artists {Rolling Stones records, Bizarre, Straight, Swan Song etc}. Even George and Ringo learned and had their own labels.

iamthewalrus said...

Attitude is what got these people locked up forever. Acting like asses in the courtroom, singing their bullshit songs. Acting all 1969 badass is what got them where they are today. Bobby still acts the same way but in a more 70 year old hippy kind of way. If they had just butchered a bunch of people and acted normal, they would have been sprung years ago, but oh no, they have to be all out there weird in your face nuts. Now they are old and sorry. There are still a few satellite nuts still out there. Sandy, Lynette, George... All you had to do was watch Mansons funeral to see what kind of people they are. Actions have reactions and you are seeing the reaction at the parole hearing. If they think its too "cruel" to go through a parole hearing, Im sure they can refuse to participate.... Karma is a bitch.

Doug said...

Melcher produced the FAR SUPERIOR ☆MONO☆ 7" version of The Grapefruit's "Dear Delilah" which I am looking for to post a link. In the meantime, here's the fairly recent REMASTERED stereo mix for you to listen to.

Very much in the style of BEE GEES 1ST with a little less mellotron and desperation.

Their BBC sessions show a fantastically talented live band that may sound even better than this intricate baroque-pop-psych thingy

https://youtu.be/9xx94Gi0cX0

Cheers

Doug said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Doug said...

GLORIOUS ☆MONO☆

https://youtu.be/P1qbQyB37ZQ

David said...

Thanks Doug,

That was fun but....

Hate to be an ass but there is a reason certain bands of that era never caught a spark. That would be a good example.

Doug said...

Kinda interesting how they mixed out Michael Clarke's harmonica solo in this outtake...McGuinn was such a prick. Only "out-pricked" by Crosby.

I like this faster version. Clarke's drumming drives it along with a bit of urgency

https://youtu.be/DVnE8SO_-HY

Doug said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Doug said...

Yep

Totally agree. You can't put that up next to bands from 67/68 like Love, Bee Gees, Beatles...not even lesser bands like The Left Banke, Clear Light, The Move etc...need worry as they kick Grapefruit's ass

David said...

Absolutely. Gotta wonder what Lennon and McCartney "heard".

grimtraveller said...

David said...

Hate to be an ass but there is a reason certain bands of that era never caught a spark

Oh, there are plenty of reasons, usually combinations of reasons. But quality of a song is so subjective and when we hear it 50 years later there is a whole layer of history, not to mention, more importantly, our own history that blurs matters.

iamthewalrus said...

Attitude is what got these people locked up forever

Hmmm, I wonder. The overwhelming majority of their lives, most of the jailbound have actually displayed a fairly good attitude.

starviego said...

Something happened to some people in Hollywood a long time ago

I think it amounted to a little more than just "something."

and they just can't forgive

It's not really for them to forgive.

Enough already! Let the poor guy go!

I'm not surprised that Bobby's parole got denied. He is the one person, in parole hearing terms, that has consistently demonstrated a certain duplicity that leaves many uncomfortable. Right from when he was a kid, he has shown this mode of being in which he comes over as knowing best, regardless of anyone else and time and again, it's caught up with him. I think he's the one whose attitude has kept him in longer than he otherwise might have been.

Jenn said...

David quoted:

“TERRY MELCHER popped up in England and sold the publishing rights to all his American copyright songs to the BEATLES’ new music company, Apple. TERRY’s tunes include just about every hit that MARK LINDSAY has sung on the Raider recordings”

It’s always a guessing game about when is the right time to sell copyrights. Should he have kept Indian Reservation or Arizona or Kicks a bit longer? Perhaps not with royalties for streaming being so tiny now.

My friend and guitar teacher was the last lead guitarist for Wings, and he remains in contact with McCartney. He reports that Paul has over the years collected quite a few copyrights.

Jenn

Peter said...

I love Wings.

"Love take me down to the streets ..."

iamthewalrus said...

Grim,

I should have made clear that the girls have been model prisoners. The attitude that put them where they are is singing on the way to court, standing up in court yelling, writing on walls in blood, stabbing people over and over, creepy crawling peoples homes, being photographed all wide eyed and scary looking, hacking up a pregnant woman, sticking a meat fork in a guy. I could go on and on buy you get what Im saying. Their attitude NOW is just lovely. They took great joy in scaring the shit out of the world THEN. NOW they are saints. No they shouldn't still be in jail. They should have been executed back then. Keeping them alive is what has helped make them world famous. Idiots wanting them let loose. Us on blogs, and Manson's funeral on tv would all have been avoided IF they had just executed them. I know for the families, its like an open wound that never heals. For that alone they should never get out. NOBODY thinks about the lives they ruined. The focus is always on THEM. Just like they always wanted....


PS Tex and Bobby are different. Not because they are men but because they are butchers.

HellzBellz said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdsT_4vafk0

Speculator said...

Grim - there’s a reason why most of the perps have demonstrated a fairly good attitude for most of their lives - it’s because they’ve thankfully been incarcerated for most of their lives!!! I’m sure they quickly realised that they were very small fish in a very big pond inside and that there were a lot more scary people than themselves in there with them. This bunch were essentially cowards who preyed on vulnerable victims with weapons to boot. A bad attitude in prison would bring them a whole lot of trouble with both the prison authorities as well as their fellow inmates! I guess the exception was Manson himself but he had the protection of solitary and special units for a lot of the time

Speculator said...

iamthewalrus is spot on with his/her assessment of these killers and the reasons why they should never get out. If you need reminding of why just go and listen to the words of Doris Tate at Watson’s parole hearing.

LouGehrig said...

Bobby also proves through the past few interviews ive heard that hes the most lucid and least affected by the ravages of time which in my opinion is a HUGE red flag as to why he should stay in

LouGehrig said...

As far as officially he was listed on the Second Labianca Homicide Report on the suspect list right after Sharon Ransom, Zorba the Greek and Leonard Posella who lived in the 3267 Waverly guest house

Gorodish said...

Here's an excerpt from the excellent 1998 reference book "Beatles Undercover" (Bold type is mine):

The group Grapefruit consisted of George Alexander (born Alexander Young on December 28, 1946 in Glasgow, Scotland), Geoff Swettenhan (born March 8, 1948), his brother Pete Swettenham (born April 24, 1949), and John Perry (born July 16, 1949) all born in London, England. All but Alexander were in a band called the Sugarbeats before becoming members of the group Tony Rivers and The Castaways, managed by Brian Epstein's NEMS Enterprises. Tony Rivers And The Castaways recorded a cover version of The Beatles' song, Nowhere Man, released in 1966. Paul McCartney attended a Tony Rivers and The Castaways performance at Epstein's Saville Theatre on November 19, 1967. Terry Doran, a friend of Brian Epstein and The Beatles from Liverpool, who worked for Apple Music Publishing, signed Alexander as a songwriter for Apple. (Alexander came from a very musical family. His brother George, whose first name Alexander borrowed, was in the mid-'60s group The Easybeats and his brothers Angus and Malcolm are members of the group AC/DC.) John Perry said, "I met Doran who told me he worked for a company called Apple. Later I found out it was The Beatles' company. Had I known that I would have been down there in five minutes! We had this idea of forming a four-piece group that would replace The Beatles' pop image because they were sort of psychedelic at the time. Apple liked the idea, and it was there that I met George Alexander whose songs we liked." The group was signed to Apple Publishing and managed by Doran. On December 11, 1967, they were christened Grapefruit at the suggestion of John Lennon (after Yoko Ono's book of the same title). On January 17, 1968, The Beatles (minus Harrison) attended a press reception at the London headquarters of RCA records (Apple did not yet have a record label) to launch Grapefruit. (Some time later, Lennon, McCartney and Starr attended a press reception for Grapefruit held at The Hanover Grand's Banqueting Rooms.) The group's first single, Dear Delilah, was released two days later. According to several reliable publications, Lennon and McCartney visited Grapefruit at IBC Studios in London and probably participated for their debut recording session that produced the recording Dear Delilah. The Swettenhams and Perry agree none of The Beatles contributed to or were present for the recording of Dear Delilah. However, they recall Lennon and McCartney attending one of their first recording sessions. Pete remembers McCartney hanging around playing tambourine but does not think anything resulted from those first sessions.Terry Melcher, who is listed as the producer of Dear Delilah, does not recall any of The Beatles being present for the recording and said he handled all the production by himself.(Melcher, the son of actress Doris Day, was a songwriter and producer known for his work with The Byrds and Bruce Johnston of The Beach Boys [see: The Beach Boys]. Melcher, no doubt came at the suggestion of The Beatles' press officer and Apple publicist, Derek Taylor, who had been a publicist for The Byrds and The Beach Boys.) Grapefruit said they, not Melcher, produced their second single, Yes//Elevator. The group recalls McCartney being present to give advice and help (padding drums etc.) with the recording of Yes. On May 26, 1968, McCartney directed a promotional video for Elevator at the Albert Memorial Statue in London.…Terry Doran and Derek Taylor went on to become assistants for George Harrison for a time.

So the Melcher/Apple connection is tenuous at best.

grimtraveller said...

Gorodish said...

So the Melcher/Apple connection is tenuous at best

As I thought, he plays really no part in their story. A meet or two doesn't count !

Speculator said...

there’s a reason why most of the perps have demonstrated a fairly good attitude for most of their lives - it’s because they’ve thankfully been incarcerated for most of their lives!!! I’m sure they quickly realised that they were very small fish in a very big pond inside and that there were a lot more scary people than themselves in there with them

I think all that is partly true alongside them seeing the error of their ways eventually and breaking very definitely with Charlie.
I don't subscribe to the theory that their attitude got them convicted and locked up either ~ the evidence did that. Evidence that proved beyond a reasonable doubt they were guilty. Tex didn't play up. He didn't sing in court, attack the judge, shave his head yet he got locked up same way. And still is.

LouGehrig said...

Bobby also proves through the past few interviews ive heard that hes the most lucid and least affected by the ravages of time which in my opinion is a HUGE red flag as to why he should stay in

You remind me of a dear old friend of mine that was born in 1971........

David said...

Now that we’ve highjacked this post the point isn’t if Melcher knew the Beatles. The point is did Manson know he did. That would make the Melcher connection far more interesting then a couple ‘promises he didn’t keep’.

LouGehrig said...

If Melcher had even met the Beatles at some time there would be pictures of it somewhere, theres a well known screwball in the TLB research world who has been claiming to have a picture of Charlie and Paul McCartney meeting but has yet to produce it, if something sounds like bullshit 9 times out of 10 it is