Six months after the infamous murders, Jim Markham — a hairstylist turned mogul whose clients included Paul Newman and Steve McQueen and was a protege to victim Jay Sebring — hosted a federal sting to uncover the cult leader’s motive.
Jim Markham remembers vividly the days following the grisly Manson murders of Roman Polanski's pregnant wife, Sharon Tate, her former boyfriend and hairstylist Jay Sebring and three others at the director's Benedict Canyon residence in August 1969. At the time, Markham was Sebring's protege and business partner in a budding franchise of men's hair salons that stretched from a star-packed outpost on the corner of L.A.'s Melrose and Fairfax to Miami. Sebring became the second person to die at the hands of the Manson Family members during an infamous killing spree that claimed seven lives, including coffee heiress Abigail Folger and her lover, Polish screenwriter Wojciech Frykowski.
Markham, then 25 and splitting his time between his hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and L.A., was the heir apparent to Sebring's 400-plus clientele, which included Paul Newman, Frank Sinatra and Steve McQueen. Markham heard the news on the radio and got on the phone with Sebring International president John Madden. "Jay and I had talked many times … that I'd be his successor if anything ever happened to him," Markham recalls. "I just took right over out of necessity."
The hair-care mogul sipped a Perrier on the deck of the Majestic Hotel in Cannes when he met with The Hollywood Reporter, a day after the world premiere of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood — Quentin Tarantino's spin on the events surrounding the Charles Manson-directed murders. (In the movie, Sebring is a key character played by Emile Hirsch.) By Markham's side was his wife of 32 years, Cheryl — the daughter of Dan Genis, special effects guru behind Star Wars — who came of age during the Manson era.
Revisiting the weeks that followed the killings is both painful and cathartic for Markham, now 75 and fabulously wealthy thanks to founding four hair-care companies, including Pureology Serious Colour Care, which he sold to L'Oréal in 2007 for $280 million. (He pocketed more than $100 million on that deal alone.) Markham has never talked in detail about his entanglement in the infamous investigation that captured headlines worldwide and continues to fascinate new generations. His tale reveals his previously unknown role in the critical months after the murders, as law enforcement attempted to identify the killers and decipher their motives with no break in the case.
|Markham was Paul Newman's |
|Charles Manson, arrested in 1969.|
Days after the murders, and at the behest of Sebring's father, Markham began living at the house where he had been a frequent guest: Sebring's Bavarian-style home, once owned by Jean Harlow and located on Easton Drive in Beverly Hills — just one mile away from the Polanski-Tate residence on Cielo Drive. "I'm living in Jay's house with raccoons on the roof — it would sound like somebody walking on the top of the house," he says. "I finally had to move out. I thought I was going to be next. They hadn't caught Manson. Nobody knew why it happened."
As Markham remembers, Tate's father, a colonel in Army intelligence, began working with federal agents on the investigation. The agents told Markham that they believed the killers were connected to the salon (murder victim Folger also had a connection to the hair enterprise given that she was an investor in Sebring International). The salon was bugged, but ultimately that line of inquiry lost steam. Once the Manson Family became suspects, however, about six months after the murders, the feds enlisted a willing Markham to set up a sting at his rented Brentwood home. He was to host a meeting between a woman and a man she had met at a bar, someone who had recounted to her at length how he had met Manson in jail. The former inmate was thought to have information pertaining to the cult leader's motive for the murders. But Markham doesn't believe any of the taped conversation from the sting was used in the trial that took place in 1970 and 1971. "This guy looked spooked, really scared," he says of the meeting.
Five decades later, Markham floats his own theory, one that deviates from the official "Helter Skelter" scenario put forth by Manson prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi: that the cult leader ordered the Tate murders in hopes that it would spark an apocalyptic race war as foretold to him in what he believed were coded lyrics on The Beatles' White Album.
Though Markham is reluctant to denigrate the memory of Sebring, who was his mentor and after whom he named his son, he claims that the late hairdresser knew Manson and suggests that the murders were the result of a drug deal gone bad — an account that aligns with a once-popular explanation that fell out of favor as the Helter Skelter narrative became dominant. Back in 1969, Sebring was nicknamed The Candyman and was said to have used his salon to peddle drugs to the stars.
"I don't want to get into the drugs, but I never bought into the race war theory. I believe Manson had gone up to the house" — Polanski was away shooting a movie — "and Manson wanted to sell cocaine and marijuana," he says. "He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them]." Markham adds, "I've lived with that for 50 years. I still believe that." He declines to elaborate further given that he is still in touch with Sebring's nephew Anthony DiMaria, who is planning a movie about the murders.
In Once Upon a Time, Manson appears before the killings at the Cielo Drive house. The film implies that Manson was looking for record producer Terry Melcher, the son of Doris Day, who with girlfriend Candice Bergen had moved out before the murders. (In real life, Manson, an aspiring musician, was introduced to Melcher, who declined to sign him, by The Beach Boys' Dennis Wilson.)
Once Upon a Time offers a revisionist history of the murders and introduces fictitious characters into the blood-soaked narrative, namely Leonardo DiCaprio's actor Rick Dalton and Brad Pitt's stunt double Cliff Booth. Margot Robbie plays Tate, while Polanski has a bit part, played by Rafal Zawierucha. Markham mostly approves of the film, but he bristles at the depiction of Sebring. "I thought Jay was marginalized, and that upset me," he says. "They portrayed him as this sort of houseboy. This was a very powerful man at the time."
|Leonardo DiCaprio (left) and Brad Pitt |
in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.
|Peter Lawford (right) jokingly |
cut Markham's hair circa the '70s.
Markham continued to intersect with the Tate family while the Manson investigation played out. "When I took over the salon, Sharon's mother, Gwen, treated me like a son," he says. Markham dated Sharon's younger sister, Debra, who consulted on Tarantino's movie. "She looked just like Sharon. They were a real nice family."
In 1972, he founded Markham Products with backing from actor Peter Lawford, all the while cutting and styling for the likes of Newman ("my first, my favorite"), Robert Redford, Johnny Carson, Paul Anka, Joanne Woodward and Jacqueline Bisset. Newman was particularly loyal, allowing Markham to hang a framed letter in the salon in 1971: "He wrote, 'Dear Jim, just a note to let you know that I'm a Sebring fan and you're still running a first-class operation.' " Markham also taught a young Jon Peters the Sebring method. The hairdresser turned A Star Is Born producer took one of his classes in the early '70s.
While doing a house call at Denis' Modern Film Effects, a postproduction house that worked on Raiders of the Lost Ark and Apocalypse Now, Markham met Cheryl, then a receptionist. They married in 1982 and began running the businesses together. After selling Markham Products in 1989, Markham launched ABBA Pure and Natural Hair Care, one of the first vegan lines in the U.S., then sold it in 1997 for $20 million. With Pureology, a line created in 2001, Markham made his biggest contribution by developing the now-ubiquitous sulfate- and carcinogen-free shampoo. "The concept for Pureology started from a phone call," says Cheryl. "My best girlfriend said, 'I got diagnosed with ovarian cancer. My doctor gave me a list of don't-use ingredients. You've got to make me things that I can use.' " In 2011, Markham founded his final company, ColorProof Evolved Color Care. Perhaps in a nod to Once Upon a Time, salons that stock the ColorProof product line are being offered classes on the scissor-over-comb technique pioneered by Sebring and perfected by Markham.
Although he provided original hair salon items to Once Upon a Time's props department, Markham's input was otherwise limited. His offer to cut the hair of Damian Lewis, who plays former client and Sebring International investor McQueen, was rebuffed because Tarantino already had hired a hair team. "It looked like it was an '80s look," he says of Lewis' cut. "But otherwise, Damian looked and acted exactly like Steve McQueen."
Except for a handful of longtime, non-celebrity clients, Markham rarely cuts hair these days. Looking back to before the Manson murders, he waxes nostalgic. "It was the time of my life," he says. "But then it was really awful. The whole city was terrorized. It went from being loosey-goosey to very guarded overnight. They brought about a whole new era."
|Markham (right) with celebrity |
hairstylist Vidal Sassoon in 1968.
|Jay Sebring Salons were located in West Hollywood, |
New York and London, among other cities.
Sharon's mother Gwen? Her name is Doris. He dated Debra? She was 17 in 1969. Hmmmm.
Her real first name was Gwendolyn and everyone close to her called her that. 17? Big deal. Jay was dating a 15 year old for a while that Sharon talked about interview.
Gwendolyn was her middle name and she went by Gwen as you said with close friends.
I believe by this time we are aware that Debbie Tate had done more than date by the time she was 17.
Some real revelations in this man's account:
"As Markham remembers, Tate's father, a colonel in Army intelligence, began working with federal agents on the investigation."
If the 'federal agents' were working on the case during office hours, then this is more confirmation that the Feds(probably meaning the FBI) were officially involved. Which means they have investigative reports that have never been acknowledged nor released.
"Markham ... claims that the late hairdresser knew Manson.."
Interesting, but a source for this claim would be nice.
"Jay and Wojciech... beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them]."
Wasn't Charlie in San Diego with Schram the night before?
Yes I thought of that too Starviego. Wasn't it Thursday, August 7 when Sharon and Jay attended a taping of Marcus Welby MD to see Robert Lipton? I suppose the beating could have occured after? He could have his dates fucked up too!?
Anybody else hear of the dinner at Jay's on Wednesday where the cable TV went out and they found that some wires were cut?
Substitute rage killer Watson/proven dope dealer for Manson. Why the fight claim may or may not be wrong, that this was all about dope dealing IS and will come out even more soon.
Time for the spotlight to shine on Tex. He gets less attention than everyone else.
I thought the sister of Schramm places them in San Diego on the 7th with Charlie talking Helter Skelter bullshit to her with Charlie and Schramm getting back to Spahn at around 2 in the afternoon on the 8th
With the ending of the movie known now I'm sure we're going to see a million Monday morning quarterback "oh yeah, now that I think about it Tex got in a fight with blah....blah...blah", just like all the "I was supposed to be at Cielo but my dog had a luxating patella that I had to tend to", no wonder so much fucking bullshit surrounds this case
"Anybody else hear of the dinner at Jay's on Wednesday where the cable TV went out and they found that some wires were cut?"
Tom O'Neill said this happened the night before--presumably that would be the evening of the 7th of August(Thursday).
95 percent chance if your story came out AFTER Atkins story went public it's bullshit as far as ACTUAL events, motives of course are a different story
O Neill is full of shit
That will never happen
Watson was a dealer for Watson not Manson, just like Charlie Tex has always looked out for one person....himself, I doubt he ever gave Charlie a plug nickel, think about it, would you? Or would you laugh in the short scrawny little runts face?
O'Neill on the event the night before:
"I found pretty compelling evidence in the original police reports that the people who were killed the first night—Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Wojciech Frykowski, and Abigail Folger—there was an attempt on them the night before at Jay Sebring’s house. They had dinner at Sebring’s house—and this is part of the official narrative—and they were sitting down to watch a movie after dinner and all of a sudden there was a big surge of power and the floodlights went really powerfully on and off. He lost his TV, half the power in the house went off. I found a police interview with the guy who did the wiring for Jay’s house and put the cable TV in. He told me that at Jay’s house [later] he saw the cut wires and said, “These wires were deliberately cut. I could tell by the gradations in the wiring and the severing.”
"The next night, they were killed. [Family member] Tex Watson before the murders climbed up a pole, didn’t cut the lights, but cut the phone wires. So the question is: Was it a coincidence that someone went to Jay Sebring’s house and cut wires and 24 hours later at Sharon’s house, the wires are cut? That would upend the whole Helter Skelter motive that says [the victims] were strangers to their killers, that it was the house, that they were trying to send a message to Melcher, who used to live there, and to Hollywood. If this is true, and all this adds up, it means they were stalking them. And even more interesting, Manson was away during those 24 hours the night before. He wasn’t at the ranch. So then it brings up the question of maybe this whole thing was organized by Watson for other reasons.
Wow Starviego. Makes me want to read the O'Neill book.
Anybody notice the license plate on the car? If you are into numerology it translated to 8-8-69
I’m going to see it again to look for more details like that.
Nobody massacres a house full of people over a small-time drug burn.
Maybe the raccoons living on the roof chewed through the wires. They do that you know.
When did Manson get the ticket?
I always look at the totality of information and by whom that information is brought to light to decide whether or not it’s credible.
If we use Dennis Wilson as a metric (because we know his involvement is fact) I tend to think that if Tex was wheelin’ and dealin’ drugs with Hollywood elite (which Sebring was) the whole family would somehow be engaged with and knowledgeable of Sebring.
1. If the “beat Charlie up at the gate” were true, how does that tie into the randomness of the LaBianca’s the next night? Did Rosemary kick Charlie’s dirty and scrawny little ass too?
2. If the “beat Charlie up at the gate” was true, the defense could have argued that “they didn’t go to kill anyone, they wanted to scare them and the situation got out of hand after a fight ensued” and if credible, the killers would likely have been released many many years ago.
The FACT remains, there is far too much credible evidence that points to HS long before Bugs was involved.
AstroCreep said: "If the “beat Charlie up at the gate” were true, how does that tie into the randomness of the LaBianca’s the next night?"
That has been the problem with the drug burn theory all along. Unless you say Kasabian totally made up the random drive and the reason for the trip to Venice (or the whole trip) there is no connection between the two nights or the LaBianca's and Sebring/Frykowski.
By most accounts they ended up at the LaBiancas because either 'it was the house next door to the Harold True house' or he finally went there to exact revenge on the roommates and found no one home and went next door.
If Bugliosi or any DA knew about this event (and how could they not) they don't need HS. They have a motive: revenge. In fact Bugliosi didn't use one motive he used several. Manson being humiliated at that house (Hatami) was offered. Why not use this too? It doesn't make sense and strengthens the case.
According to his relative over on that old post Buddy et all beat up Manson too at the True house. And if Sebring/Frykowski put a beating on Manson then there could be a connection but it's not drugs. It's revenge. But, of course, that doesn't address the randomness of night #2 unless the family with the kids' pictures on the wall, the priest, the guy in the sports car and the actor in Venice all also gave Manson a beating.
Along with the number of stuntmen who claim to have pounded him, as Mon Durphy points out, it does seem that along with all of the people who skipped a midnight dinner at Cielo that night everyone took a swing at Manson.
LaBianca doesn't rule out drug burn when you consider they wanted money to hire a lawyer for Beausoleil and pay off the Straight Satans and the first night was a mess. It would be to throw police completely off the trail and drug underworld of Hollywood.....AND IT WORKS, if you consider yourself ruling out the dope dealing because of LaBianca.
Watson was the main drug dealer at Spahn. But the media and these people are always going to put Manson at the heart of it all.
O'Neill's book and his main focus goes into batshit insanity of the McGowan variety. But I would still recommend it because he did uncover some very relevant stuff.
Unrelated, if you don't get old post updates a guy recently posted over on the sports car post:
Saying he's the guy in the car.
David typed :
Unrelated, if you don't get old post updates a guy recently posted over on the sports car post......Saying he's the guy in the car.
Wow, I just read that. The guy certainly is descriptive, right down to the "noisy lifters" of the Fairlane. I've always thought that, if the Fairlane actually pulled up next to the white sports car at the light, and the driver glanced over, it would be a memorable sight, seeing 7 hippies stuffed into an old beater car. But then again, perhaps that wasn't such an anomaly in 1969.
Who knows. Just like this Markham guy, there sure are a lot of people crawling out of the woodwork for the 50th anniversary of the murders.
I call bullshit on all of this. Story of Jay's house the night before isn't even in the book. Says he got it from the initial police reports? Bullshit. Cable tv in 1969? Bullshit.
Beating up Charlie at the Cielo gate the night before? Bullshit. Charlie wasn't anywhere near there until the afternoon of August 9th.
O'Neill on the event the night before:
If this is true, and all this adds up, it means they were stalking them.
Throw in the 'Sharon wasn't supposed to be there' words from a few Family members over the years, and you can get the idea the occupants of 10050 Cielo were indeed being stalked. I think there is something to it. Charlie was drawn to that house … something more than it just being Terry's house.
Where was 8 months pregnant Sharon supposed to be if not at home.
Where was 8 months pregnant Sharon supposed to be if not at home.
Who knows? But she had spent some nights over at Sheilah Wells' house since returning in July because she didn't enjoy being around Voytek and Abigail … complaints she openly voiced to Doris.
According to Ernie Baltzells nephew Ernie told him thst he was convinced Charlie came back the night of the murders looking for Harold and Co to be at 3267 and when he found the house vacant may have tried to open a door or window and was heard or seen by the Labiancas
And Doris relayed those complaints to the Family.
Years ago on one of the now defunct blogs, someone had the phone logs from Spahn and there was a telephone call placed to Cielo Drive on the morning of the 8th. The person claimed they had these but then never found them. Just thought it was an interesting addition to this chat.
Also on Cat's site years ago there was talk of a white van up in the Cielo private drive with hippie types but I'm not remembering the full story so probably shouldn't mention it. Maybe someone else remembers this?
Legendary NBA player for the Lakers Jerry West claimed to be the guy in the Porsche on Sunset when Charlie pulled up and got out at the light, he said when the light turned green he floored it and lost them
I've actually heard of white a few cases where a houseful of peolpe have been killed over either a botched deal or an out and out rip off, the Wonderland "Four on the Floor" murders is one obvious well known case
Mon Durphy my recollection was that Jerry West said he had a car like that and it could have been him for all he knows.
My recollection was that he sounded pretty sure of it but I could be wrong, here's a fun fact, the Dodgers were at home playing the Cubs on the night of Aug. 8, 1969, who were the opposing pitchers? I'll be back in 3 minutes
Years ago on one of the now defunct blogs, someone had the phone logs from Spahn and there was a telephone call placed to Cielo Drive on the morning of the 8th.
That never happened.
I agree with you there, if that happened it would have been HUGE, do you believe the call by someone at Cielo to Esalen happened Star?
Times up....Ferguson Jenkins/Cubs, Bill Singer/Dodgers
As Star said, there are no unusual calls to Cielo on the 8th or frankly any other day.
There was a call to Esalen, which was likely from Gibbie as she had connections there and had been there several times. No, Manson was not there.
The call if I recall was less than two minutes and that was likely her calling to find out what workshops etc. were going on early the next week as she was flying to San Francisco to spend her birthday with her mom and planned to dump Frykowski before she left per her shrink.
I agree, I'm becoming more of a believer in that theory the more I study this case
So I take it you don't think Manson went back to Cielo later that night or early morning?
I don't buy this bologna whatsoever. Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that VB didn't pull HS out of his ass. The killers left HS printed in blood at the crime scene for crying out loud.
It's a good thing he had 12 suckers like you on his jury, by the way I've got some oceanfront property in Wyoming I'd like to talk to you about
Mon Durphy said...
"...do you believe the call by someone at Cielo to Esalen happened Star?"
Yes, that did happen. I suspect Folger was at Esalen, about the 2nd and 3rd of August.
Mon Durphy said: "With Sharon?"
Starviego said: "I suspect Folger was at Esalen, about the 2nd and 3rd of August."
No, she wasn't. She saw her therapist each day at 4:00 p.m. It shows on his bill.
Ann said: "Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that VB didn't pull HS out of his ass. The killers left HS printed in blood at the crime scene for crying out loud."
1. Because some want Manson to be not culpable.
2. Because they like him or liked him if they knew him or believe a woman beating/raping/pimping pedophile is ok.
3. Because the HS theory is so out there.
4. Because most don't understand the impact of a millennial philosophy on those who buy into it as crazy as those things are, although oddly don't question that same impact when they drink cool aid in the jungle or leave this world to grab a ride on a comet.
5. Because they don't want to.
6. Because for 50 years people have searched for a better explanation because it is so terribly hard to accept that these people were butchered for what really is no reason. We like nice neat packages with bows and we don't like to think someone is capable of slaughtering someone for no reason.
7. Because they don't want to look at the overwhelming evidence or listen to what he actually said.
8. Because of all of the inconsistent evidence in the case.
9. Because conspiracy theories are more fun.
10. Because we don't like Bugliosi.
I think that sums it up, Ann. I might have missed something on that list but that's a good start.
But I think the primary reason is actually because part of all this, this blog, this subject is about, involves, draws those who don't think Manson did shit. No he just ordered the murder of four people (drug dealers) and a fifth (homosexual), shot a black man (black), cut off the ear of a guy (homosexual drug dealer), drove a car to a house and tied up two people (drug dealers/mafia) so others could carve "WAR" in their chest. But they somehow 'like' him.
This subject draws a certain segment of the population who share his basic beliefs. Who see him as a rebel or maybe a prophet of white fear. He is both a boogey-man and a hero. He stood there and said 'fuck the Free World'. So to some degree they look for reasons the victims deserved it- drug dealers, homosexuals, etc.- or as one who still breaths our air said:
"Sharon Tate’s baby dying? A baby that would grow up to be a fat fucking hamburger-eating, Earth-destroying . . . soul-destroying piece of shit?!”
That's who and what they were/are. Not that bullshit Fromme wrote. That is what they believed in 1969 and believe today.
I'll just personally be glad when the last of the true believers are gone. Save those who got their head straight.
Here are a few more quotes from The Fam:
"“Why were these seven murders committed? It seemed like a good idea at the time.”
“She begged? Yes. So?”
“So in other words, if the clock could be put back, if I saw that this is the way it was coming down, again, I’d do it again.”
“To get a brother out of jail, I would kill. I would have killed that night if I had gone along.”
“People are being killed every day.”
“In war people die, Patty.”
“[Cutting down those trees] is worse than Tate-LaBianca.” [Reported to me.]
“We were left to die in prison because we were white, man. And where were your liberal humanitarians when we were facing the gas chamber for trying to save Earth from people . . . getting drunk on the blood of children! Even child murderers get to point the finger at Charlie, accuse us of killing children. Peck, peck, peck, peck down the order. Sharon Tate’s baby dying? A baby that would grow up to be a fat fucking hamburger-eating, Earth-destroying . . . soul-destroying piece of shit?!”
That, folks is who they are/were. Period. No drug burn. No copycat. Just that, because Manson was a nothing, a blip in history a loser.
And with that, folks, I'm out. It has been fun.
I'd like to thank Matt and Deb for giving me the opportunity to post here. Blew me away when they asked if I wanted to post that Kasabian thing back then. Thank you.
I'd also like to thank all the readers and thank you for their comments, good and bad....and apologize for the length of the posts I wrote.
But I think Dreath has written his last post. He says he would need to get court orders and file lawsuits to get tapes to take this any further. And he'd rather go to the beach, drink some wine and listen to the Dead.
If I knew the way, I would take you home.
The run of Fillmore West shows from February to March 1969 are amazing. I like my dead electric, loud, and apocalyptic.
David, that is the most honest, realistic reply I think I have ever read on here. I couldn't agree more!
I must say I'm sorry to see you go, but of course if that is your final decision, I wish you all the best. Your contributions to this blog have been exceptional, and from them I have truly learned something. Thank you.
Thanks David, I enjoyed all your post. Will miss your contributions.
The picture or Peter Lawford reminds me of Igor in Young Frankenstein.
Yes, thanks for all the work David.
Is anyone else familiar with Tate/Labianca radio show host Brian Davis's theory of the Labianca murder he claims that Manson robbed them of several thousand dollar's and took the money to pay Bobbie's debt to the Straight Satan's whose clubhouse was in Venice beach
Yes and I agree, the driving around aimlessly half the night then around 1 he makes a bee line for Waverly Dr, goes inside BY HIMSELF at first, gets a bunch of cash off Leno then tells the others to go in and then high tails it to Venice and DROPS EVERYONE OFF and leaves telling them to hitchhike home, why? Because in both cases where he was alone he was taking care of his own personal agenda with the Satans
The comments Sandra Good don't represent in any way shape or form the reality of the entire thing. That HS was written in blood doesn't either. As one person in LE said, HS was a philosophy, not a motive for murder. Fantasy would be a better word to describe it though.
It's just pure denial to believe drugs and money weren't at the center of these crimes. It simply boils down to the fact that an ambitious DA made HS the motive to keep the truth concealed and go with a "far out" motive he knew would be a sensationalist case and if you put enough pressure on they will run with anything, especially when facing death or a long prison sentence.
The HS theory is falling a part little by little and it's rather surprising that the 50th is ushering it in. That people want to turn around and split simply means they can't handle the reality they were played and their attempt to validate Bugliosi was pointless.
One thing that doesn't get discussed much is that Charlie was a huge biker wannabe, he desperately wanted that badass persona that comes with wearing colors on your back and being an outlaw, the money could have been payback on a deal or a monetary bribe of sorts to be initiated into the Satans
I don’t think I ever validated Bugliosi. But I’ll put you down under reason # 10 and 3.
drugs and money huh
I don't see why it can't be possible that HS (Krenwinkel) and drugs/revenge/hit squad (Watson) can't be dual motives within all of that group madness.
And David - thank you for all your efforts, don't let the proud boy(s) get you down. Hope you get charged up again after some GD and R&R.
Hope you stick around Dreath or come back after a break. Your posts are always kick ass. This from an old old timer who doesn't post much. I love this blog!
The HS motive isn't falling apart, that's wishful thinking from people that truly wish it were falling apart. It happened 50 years ago, the murderers were convicted & taken off the street, so they couldn't harm another person.... End of story....
Mon, or muff or whatever your name is, you don't need to come on here and disrespect me for having a difference of opinion.
David- I’m very much of the same opinion. When presented with the FACTS, all the sympathizers fumble and then it quiets down. First it’s a drug burn, then it’s the CIA, then it’s Linda the Mastermind, etc. I guess what it really comes down to is who identifies with who.
Personally, my belief is that anyone that sides with the murderers (in any fashion) should have their head examined. The victims were slaughtered like animals. In one case, after mutilating a couples bodies, the killers got cleaned up and had some watermelon and chocolate milk 15 feet away from the man they carved up, stuck a knife in his neck and fork in his abdomen while he was hooded and tied up... all while his poor wife listened to it happening while tied up with lamp cords. I could give a rats ass if so and so didn’t know what was going to happen when they tagged along that night- they did NOTHING to stop people from being butchered and mutilated, and therefore are just as culpable. Deal with it! What a cowardly way to kill people. Render them helpless, then take turns stabbing their body and culminate with some good old fashioned mutilation.
I also don’t understand the disdain and downright hatred for Bugs. He’s the REAL HERO in this whole case. He put those scumbags in prison and thankfully two of them finally rotted away and died while incarcerated. THANK YOU VINCE! People here seem to paint Vince as the villain. And regardless of what anyone thinks the motive is/was- IT DOESN’T MATTER. They’re in jail, there’s no new compelling evidence. Thanks to Vince, they’ll all likely die in jail. Again, THANK YOU VINCE!
The scene inside 10050 Cielo must have been pure horror. And to think a beautiful young woman who was 8 months pregnant got to watch it all unfold only to have the knives turned on her makes me sick. Hopefully none of you sympathizers or your family members die in such a horrendous way. And hopefully you don’t have to watch it happen.
In the end, it doesn’t matter what the motive was. It wasn’t required to prove. Those responsible are locked up or dead. They’re NEVER getting out. They’ll all die in prison. I have zero sympathy for any of them. I only wish they’d have all “x’ed themselves out” before the crimes were committed.
Don't forget Sharon Tate's baby was also Jewish, another reason to hate Sharon and her child.
Sharon's baby would not be Jewish. Under Jewish law, the baby is Jewish if the MOTHER is.
Unknown said: "Sharon's baby would not be Jewish. Under Jewish law, the baby is Jewish if the MOTHER is."
They killed murdered him. Jew, black, homosexual, muslim they stabbed his mother over and over again as she tried to stop them (IMO) and at least pleaded for them not too.
Why does this matter?
AstroCreep, you and I should have a beer some day.
All threads lead to motive like all roads lead to Rome. I agree that Helter Skelter was the motivator, but I'm still uncertain as to whether it was Charlie's motive. It was a tool by which he controlled the Family and kept them isolated and in a constant state of fear or awareness. I don't know if there will ever be an answer to this question. But Bugluosi didn't make Helter Skelter up out of his head. It came from Charlie's head. Vince just hung him with his own con.
I’m in Long Island and LA quite often- Matt has my email. Always down for a cold one.
**live in Long Island**
Vince was a Hero please he was a self serving lying piece of shit
Everyone deserves a fair trial
And Manson sure as hell never recieved one
Manson got exactly what he deserved ... Good and hard.
Doesn't one live "on" Long Island ?
Vince was a Hero please he was a self serving lying piece of shit
Everyone deserves a fair trial
And Manson sure as hell never recieved one
I’m not a native to here, grew up north side of DC in the Maryland suburbs so not sure what they say- my wife is native but she just says the town name we live in and I’d rather not announce that here
LOL. That's what I did in the post I deleted before I thought better. Maybe I'll see you on the train one day.
THE ONLY HERO of this saga. Manson, fair trial? Please. He and all the other nitwit scramblebrains family members made a mockery of the proceedings as would they with ANY trial they were a part of. They made their bed, can’t whine about it later.
For who to hate Sharon and her baby? If you're saying Manson then why did he let Gypsy in the group for so long, and I'm sure she wasn't the only Jew in the group, I don't think Charlie was a racist at all, as angry as he was I never heard him utter the N word or spic, Jew, think or any other racial insult
Chink not think
Doubting the HS theory has become a cottage industry, there are countless books on the subject making many millions of dollars
Mon Durphy, I went down that road.
Davis: Likely Protestant
Gilles: Likely Catholic
Good: Likely Protestant
Grogan: Likely Catholic
Kasabian: Likely Catholic
Pittman: Likely Protestant
Van Houten: Presbyterian
Problem is there's alot of "likelys" there, no disrespect but I think the chances are that 1 or 2 more were Jews, not that that's a bad think but Judaism is a huge religion and chances are just too great
No disrespect but I don't think so. They're all Christians, just uncertain as to which flavor.
Barbara "Bo" Rosenberg and Stephanie Schram were Jewish and I think Mark Ross might have been, as well.
Another person who was Jewish was Irwin "Partee" Friedman. It was his 10 year old son, Johnny, who was one of the children picked up in the Spahn Ranch raid. Partee and his wife were the people that raised Sandra Good's son.
Schram or Rowe?
Exactly, which shows you Charlie could have given a shit less about race or religion if he's laying the pipe to a Jewish girl for the better part of a week before the murders
"Starviego said: "I suspect Folger was at Esalen, about the 2nd and 3rd of August."
"No, she wasn't. She saw her therapist each day at 4:00 p.m. It shows on his bill."
The 2nd and 3rd would have been Saturday and Sunday.
Best decision you ever made! Stop time burglaring yourself and get a life. Thanks for your good posts. The dead horse has been flogged... It's pretty obvious the zodiac did it anyway...
"Markham ... claims that the late hairdresser knew Manson.."
Interesting, but a source for this claim would be nice.
Um....Markham? You quoted the source, genius. But let me guess, he's not credible like fine people such as Danny DeCarlo, Linda Kasabian or some old Hollywood hasbeen with something to hide.
This is perhaps the best MSM piece aside from LA Times interviewing Mike Brunner (which I'm sure MansonBlog didn't post. Maybe because he isn't Alisa Stateman or something). and Nikolas Schreck. How it became a discussion about jews I don't know, but nice attempt to divert from something relevant but uncomfortable.
As for Bugliosi the hero, Sharon Tate was a prop for his career and it should be obvious by now he broke more than a few rules. To give somebody a "firm handshake" for that is basically saying you're fine with breaking the constitution. Manson wasn't given a fair trial. That's true just based on the pre-trial publicity. Not even Doris Tate herself liked him. Not only for untruths in Helter Skelter but also for giving Kasabian her get-out-of-jail-free card.
" "Markham ... claims that the late hairdresser knew Manson.."
Interesting, but a source for this claim would be nice."
Um....Markham? You quoted the source, genius."
I was hoping for something like 'I saw them together at...' or 'Jay told me about this crazy hippy guru named Charlie who thinks he's Jesus' or something similar.
I have a question for any experts on the Manson murders. It took 3-4 months to crack the case and arrest Manson and the others. The big break was Susan Atkins while in jail for unrelated charges bragged to fellow inmates about the Tate murders. Here's what I don't understand, Bobby Beausoleil murdered Gary Hinman in late July over a bad drug deal, Charlie was at Hinman's pad as well but split the scene after slashing his face with a sword, Beausoleil killed Hinman following Manson's exit. He wrote 'Political Piggies' in Hinman's blood on the wall.
So how did the LA cops fail to tie the Tate murders to Hinman's murder as the same type of 'pig' message in blood was found at the Tate murder scene?
In fact that is what many think the motive was for the Tate murders, to do a copy-cat murder that would exculpate Beausoleil of the Hinman murder since he was in custody and therefore impossible for him to be at the Tate murder scene.
Pre-trial publicity is Bugs fault? Again, throw shade on the right people, the ones who “wanted to shock the world” with their crimes. Check it out- THEY DID and the cost of doing business in murders that “shock the world” means that pretty much everyone in the country is savvy and you’re going to die in jail. Does it mean they shouldn’t receive a fair trial? NO. This wasn’t a case like OJ where guilt or innocence wasn’t 100% clear. The family members in jail for the murders and all the dimwits on the corner made a mockery of the trial as they would have anywhere, in any courtroom in America.
Again, you cast Bugs in a bad light and say he broke rules. Please list the factual evidence that supports your claim. What was he found guilty of? Was he disbarred for his poor ethics? Considering the courtroom outbursts and that idiot Kanarek rambling for weeks on end, the whole trial was a shitshow. I give Bugs credit for holding it together and winning the case. It also doesn’t matter if Bugs was liked or not. He had a job to do and he used everything in his disposal to put them all away. The rest of them will die in jail, why? Because in 50 years NOTHING has come to light- to include any evidence supporting the lack of a fair trial claim or unethical practices on the part of the DA. Zip. Nada. Zilch.
Unknown .... part of the problem was that the Tate-LaBianca murders were handled by LAPD, while Gary's house in Topanga fell outside of their jurisdiction, and was therefore handled by L.A. Sheriff's Office (LASO). One of the Tate detectives was quickly notified by someone at LASO, who mentioned that the Tate scene sounded similar to what they had at the Hinman residence, and was therefore worthy of comparing notes to see if they could connect the two to the same people, even though Bobby was already in custody for the Hinnan killing. The detective, Jess Buckles said thanks but no thanks .... feeling that the Tate scene was a drug murder ... and that avenue was their first priority. The detectives from LASO didn't bother making a second request.
Zelda Formaldehyde said...
"One of the Tate detectives was quickly notified by someone at LASO, who mentioned that the Tate scene sounded similar to what they had at the Hinman residence, and was therefore worthy of comparing notes to see if they could connect the two to the same people..."
Though, curiously, the LASO Hinman homicide detectives didn't go to their fellow LASO detectives investigating the LaBianca murders to tell them about similarities at the Hinman crime scene.
Bugliosi admitted there were multiple motives for the murders, for chrissakes stop trying to project logic on a cult of brainwashed druggies under the control of a manipulative madman. The Helter Skelter theory isn't a theory, it's a fact. Bugliosi's job was to hold those responsible for the crimes responsible and Helter Skelter was the easiest most understandable story to present to the jury. When I say 'story' I don't mean a fiction.
I just finished reading Susan Atkins' Grand Jury testimony. She had no deal with the prosecution, she was told she could remain silent, that anything she told the grand jury could be used against her if indicted for the murders and she wanted to testify, she with great detail described the events of the nights of August 8-10 including Manson's involvement especially on the second murderous night because he was displeased with the shit show that went down at the Tate house and the elements of Helter Skelter including the planting of Mrs. Labianca's wallet/ID in a gas station bathroom in a black section of LA. She had no reason to lie, no incentive, she incriminated herself completely signing her own death warrant as at the time the death penalty in California was still in effect.
That little freak was also a cowardly narcissist, he wanted Tex and his girls to sacrifice themselves not for any great cause that would save the world but a sacrifice for HIM. Bugliosi got that right too, he opined that Manson didn't even believe in his own 'revelation', just a tool to manipulate people to do something truly evil in his name, essentially just for his own amusement and self glorification.
"Bugliosi... opined that Manson didn't even believe in his own 'revelation', just a tool to manipulate people to do something truly evil in his name, essentially just for his own amusement and self glorification."
I would have to disagree with that. I think Charlie very much believed in Helter Skelter theory.
Despite the morass of this thread, DO come back after you get rested a bit, David/Dreath.
We can't take the loss of both you, St. C., and Grimtraveler all so close together.
Now that the "gerbil powered cellphone" has been destroyed let me also commend David on his massively informative and well-researched/well-written posts.
I sure hope we see you back after some respite!
I will only respond with a couple comments because I see some names here that always were important to me, like...Hell, I'll forget someone:
#1 without you there would be no blog
#2 many of those posts I wrote came from you. You asked the questions made the comments and I said to myself....ok, I'll look at that. You were my source.
So really, thank all of you.
When you write something that gets dozens or 100's of comments you just have to sit back and say 'wholly shit', even if half of those are from Grim and half of the rest have nothing to do with your post.
Doug, I have to move on. There is nowhere to go, because I will never see that crime scene photo of the purple ribbons draped on the door knob.
But go on the tour because Saint might be there and I will. Because in the end this is really about who we met here because that ribbon thingy there changes nothing.
I would've gone this year but my folks took very serious turns with regards to their health.
Family first...but, hopefully, down the road!
David, your articles on here are top notch. Thanks for all the hard work and thank you for taking the time to email with me when I was new to the rabbit hole.
David, wishing you all the best...but...your research and writing continues to deserve an audience. Especially now. Hope you return soon.
This sounds like someone trying to cash in. Does he have any corroborating evidence of this sting? He got a lot of facts wrong. I'll take Tarantino's revisionist history over this fraud's.
Wow. I really hope nobody contributes funding to make a movie based on Tex's book. "Riveting" is hardly a word I'd use to describe this mess, as the cheapo website uses.
I hope everyone realizes Manson HIMSELF has said over and over in interviews the reason for the Cieolo Drive killings was TERRY MELCHER. He says this with Ron Reagan Jr., Geraldo Rivera, Diane Sawyer and Bill S. Murphy.
The Family knew Melcher had moved away to his mother's house in Malibu. Only a ONE WEEK before the murders, someone stole a telescope from the porch at the Malibu house. Gregg Jakobson then gave Melcher a note from Manson saying he "borrowed" the telescope. (This was a message saying "we know where you live.") The next message to Melcher was the murders at Cielo Drive. "You could be next." Manson and the Family got the desired effect they wanted. Melcher was terrified, and according to O'Neill, went crawling back to Manson begging for forgiveness.
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