Monday, September 9, 2019

The Murders of Doreen Gaul and James Sharp




We have explored a few of the unsolved murders that are said to have been discussed on the elusive Tex Tapes.  It has been reported that there were up to 12 murders that could be on the tapes and attributed to members of the Manson Family.  The Los Angeles District Attorney’s office has not said specifically which 12 murders they are but, we know of quite a few that have been suggested as “Manson Murders” from various sources.

Tex Watson was in Texas at the time of the Gaul/Sharp murders so I’m not sure why anyone would think that he spoke of these murders to his attorney, Bill Boyd.  As far as we know Tex did not communicate with anyone in the Family after he left California and I’m not sure how he would have known where to contact them after the Barker Ranch raids.  However, the Gaul/Sharp murders have consistently cropped up as having been committed by the Family, more specifically by Bruce Davis, and they have been mentioned in articles about the Tex Tapes.



Doreen Gaul and James Sharp’s bodies were found November 21 1969 at around 11:00 PM in an alley behind the residence at 1138 South Magnolia, Los Angeles.  They had been placed there after death.  Doreen was nude except for a necklace that newspaper articles described as “Indian beads”.  James was fully clothed except for shoes.  James had an ID bracelet on his wrist with his name, saying he was a member of the Church of Scientology which is why they were identified so quickly.

Both had been stabbed numerous times with a knife blade that measured ½” to 1” in width and 4” in length.  There were also patterned marks on their bodies, they were thought to have been whipped by a chain.  Semen was found on and in Doreen’s body.  Each of their right eyes had been slashed.  These were very gruesome murders.

Doreen Gaul, 19 years-old, was from Albany NY.  She had been in California for about six months prior to her death.  She was the oldest of four children.  Before learning about Scientology, she had gone to parochial school in Albany, graduating in 1968 and was said to be a devout Roman Catholic.  Doreen’s father said she had been planning on coming home as she had become disenchanted with Scientology.

James Sharp, 15 years-old, came from an upper-class family who lived in the suburb of Crestwood outside of St. Louis MO.  His father, a prosperous salesman, said that James was very, very intelligent and he had given James permission in June 1969 to travel to California to study Scientology.

Early on the murders were branded the Scientology Murders much to the church’s dismay.

Newspaper articles made a loose connection between the Church of Scientology and The Process Church of the Final Judgement saying that the Process was an offshoot of Scientology.  That was probably true in a sense as Robert DeGrimston, founder of The Process, was a former Scientologist but there was no legitimate connection between the two, neither church supported the other’s ideology.

A December 10 1969 Los Angeles Times article made a connection between Charles Manson and the Church of Scientology saying Manson was known to have dabbled in Scientology.  If I remember correctly, a Scientology E-meter was found during the Spahn Ranch raid August 16 1969.  That is likely how law enforcement knew Manson had knowledge of Scientology so early after his being charged with the Tate LaBianca murders.

The Scientologists really got into a dither about the rumors swirling around and to that end they made a public statement.  They believed that authorities and others were trying to tie their organization to the Tate LaBianca murders.  Due to these rumors, they offered $30,000. in rewards which were not for the arrest and conviction of those who murdered Doreen and James but rather the rewards were for cleaning up their reputation.

“The $30,000 reward- $10,000 for each of three categories- was posted for information leading to prosecution and conviction of persons responsible for these alleged acts:

1      * Impeding investigation into the murders of Doreen Gaul, 19, and James Sharp, 15, found slain Nov. 5* in an alley.  Both were members of the church. * The church got the date wrong, the two were killed Nov. 21st.

2     *“Knowingly causing to be denied” to police information about “this vile and murderous act.”

3      * Causing circulation of falsehoods including allegations that the church membership “includes notorious individuals… never members of the Church of Scientology… but held by police in connection with other charges.”
From the San Bernardino County Sun December 13, 1969 Page 5

A November 26, 1969 Los Angeles Times article quoted Lt. Deemer saying that there might be a connection between the murder of Jane Doe 59, more recently identified as Reet Jurvetson from Canada, and the Gaul Sharp murders.  The similarities cited that all three victims were stabbed repeatedly by an apparent “fanatic”.  Jane Doe wore hippie clothing much like Doreen was known to wear and was favored by many young female Scientologist.  To that end an investigation was being made to find out whether or not Jane Doe might have been a member of Scientology. The third similarity was that both Doreen and Jane Doe had arrived to the Los Angeles area recently which was determined by the absence of smog in the lungs.

In the interest of presenting the facts of the case we are providing a 22 page pdf of the police report.

DOWNLOAD PDF (26 mb)

When reading the police reports you will find a Property Report on page 5 of the pdf.  Lines 2, 6, and 10 say “threat” when referring to something found on James person.  I believe this is a typo and should read “thread”.

Page 5 also says that a hair was found in James right hand.  On page 19 of the pdf the report states the hair is identified as having the texture of Mexican or Indian hair.  I assume they are referring to Native Americans when they say Indian.  I can’t think of anyone associated with the Family would fit those descriptions except maybe Juan Flynn or Lee Saunooke aka Windy Bucklee and I don’t seriously believe either of them were personally involved in any murders.
 
Also, on page 19 of the pdf, right above the info on the hair found in James Sharp’s hand, it says that various other jurisdictions have been notified.  It is standard procedure for police to contact other law enforcement agencies who have had similar murders.   

Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Office had the still unsolved murder of a Jane Doe found near a quarry August 3 1969 in Lompoc CA.  This location is near where Bobby Beausoleil was arrested for the murder of Gary Hinman on August 4.  Jane Doe was stabbed repeatedly and her throat was slit.

San Jose had the August 3, 1969 murders of Deborah Furlong, 14, and Kathy Snoozy,15, who were both stabbed numerous times.  These murders and the later murder, April 11, 1971, of Kathy Bilek in Saratoga CA were solved.  They were all committed by Karl Warner who had been a classmate and neighbor of Furlong and Snoozy.  He was arrested two weeks after the Bilek murder and plead guilty September 1971.

Napa County had the Zodiac killing of Cecelia Sheppard and wounding of Bryan Hartnell by stabbing at Lake Berryessa.  This bizarre attack by a hooded attacker has never been solved.  I’m not exactly certain why San Francisco was read into the Gaul Sharp murders but by November 1969 San Francisco was the lead agency in charge of the Zodiac murders.

Page 20 of the pdf gets closer to investigating the Family.  12-30-1969 at 2000 hours says that two journalists believe there is a connection between Gaul Sharp and Tate LaBianca.  To that end they have gone to Bishop CA and interviewed “several nomads” some of who claim to be Scientologists.

Further down that page detectives actually interview Family members at a residence located on Cerro Gordo Drive in Los Angeles.  The home was searched and no evidence of murder was found.  This is not a residence that I am familiar with being associated with the Family and no Family members are named.  It’s anyone’s guess whether or not they truly interviewed someone associated with the Family.

On the face of it nothing stands out as implicating the Family in these murders.  The police report doesn’t offer any solid evidence in that direction and, in fact, tends to rule them out solely based on the hair found in James Sharp’s hand.   Bruce Davis got the attention of Bill Nelson because Bruce spent a few months in London England studying Scientology.

Let’s hope that the evidence that could be tested for DNA, the hair and the semen, was stored properly all these years and the families of these two people can have some sort of resolution.

HERE are some very graphic crime scene photos that are from Bill Nelson's "Manson Behind the Scenes".  Do not open if you are the least bit queasy or object to these type of photos.

55 comments:

Jeff Harper said...

Great post Deb. Hopefully they've still have that evidence.

Fiddy 8 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt said...

Has the hair from Sharp's hand been DNA tested? How to find out?


starviego said...

Here's a couple of odd references that claim three people were found dead at the site of the killing:

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/more-charlesmanson.htm
"Another bit of publicity that the Scientologists are probably not too pleased with concerns the murder of three people in Los Angeles. Two were Scientologists.
"According to *The New York Post*, all three were brutally beaten, ritualistically stabbed, had their right eyes cut out, and were dumped 100 yards from a Scientology commune. One of the girls, Miss Doreen Gaul, nineteen, who came from New York to study Scientology, was naked except for a strand of Indian beads. The boy, James Sharpe was fifteen years old. The third was un-identified...."


A piece of blue sky: Scientology, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed by Jon Atack c. 1990
The last straw for McMaster had been the brutal murder of three teenagers in Los Angeles. Two had been Scientologists, the third was disfigured beyond identification. The mutilated bodies were left a hundred years away from a house where Scientologists lived. ... A few weeks later, The New York Times revealed that Charles Manson had been involved in Scientology.

starviego said...

Deb, great post! How did you obtain the police report?

DebS said...

Starviego, the police report was something that Bill Nelson had gotten a hold of and I got the report from the person who ended up with much of Nelson's research.

Regarding the three victims found, I don't think that three people were found in the alley, just Gaul and Sharp. The third victim is probably Jane Doe 59/ Reet Jurvetson. There may be some confusion about the disfigured victim because she was not identified for 46 years. Whoever wrote what you quoted may have wrongly assumed the reason she was not identified was because she was disfigured. She was stabbed over 150 times.

Reet Jurvetson was found November 16, 1969, just five days before the Gaul/Sharp murders.

Ajerseydevil said...

Since we're discussing other murders possibly related to the family I know quite awhile back we discussed the murder of Karl Stubbs I'm just about finished a pretty decent book called Manson Exposed & the author actually claims that Patricia Krenwinkle was actually brought in for questioning I don't remember that being mentioned before anyone know more on this

DebS said...

Ajerseydevil, it's mentioned on a timeline that was at Mark Turner's now defunct website, charliemanson.com. It's available through the Wayback Machine. There is no source for that information.

Look at November 15 1968.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130331202828/http://www.charliemanson.com/timeline-1960-1968.htm

ColScott said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColScott said...

brilliant article but then we expect no less from you Deb.

The sheer stupidity that somehow these loser slippies "got away with more murders" is a remnant of nonsense from BUG in the vein, as Col always said, of George and the Dragon. The believers, like Orca and O'Neill, are of course those with an agenda (buy plankton with estate money/sell books).

All this shit is constantly presented as "suspicious" and then when pressed for proof they ain't none.

Think about it. ZERO was murdered? And what? he was in a house in Venice he wasn't a street urchin. He was white. Presumably had a family. Cops just gave no shits at all? Or was there some clear confirmation that never made it down through history?

Mr. Humphrat said...

On 11-28-69 notes it's stated witness said the pair were going to "Asho" Does anyone know what that is?
Great post Deb. thanks.

DebS said...

ASHO is an acronym for American Saint Hill Organization, a Scientology thing.

Dan S said...

Need a follicle to get more than mitochondrial dna

orwhut said...

Col. Scot got me thinking. Have any family members ever been convicted of a murder that wasn't instigated by Charlie?

cielodrivecom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
starviego said...

Bruce Davis is often mentioned as a suspect in the murders of Gaul and Sharpe. Did Davis have a personal relationship with Gaul? Some say yes:

macewen2013.wordpress.com/
James Sharp was living with an older Scientology worker in an old three-story apartment building at 921 S. Bonnie Brae St. A block away, Doreen Gaul was living in 14-room commune called Thetan Manor at 1032 S. Bonnie Brae, but had only been there for four days.
-- It was left to other residents to inform the police that Bruce Davis had spent a lot of time in the very same communal house as Doreen Gaul, and had, in fact, dated Doreen along with several other young women. Witnesses said Davis was extremely angry when he found out that she was seeing a black man at the same time, owing to the prejudice against blacks he shared with Manson.

In this interview an ex-scientologists says they were dating but Gaul dumped Davis:
https://youtu.be/doyxK3RH4Lg
(35:00 mark)




starviego said...

Matt said...
"Has the hair from Sharp's hand been DNA tested? How to find out?"

Theoretically the cops should have submitted the semen sample for DNA testing, to see if came up a full or partial match(to a blood relation). My guess is they dumped or 'misplaced' the evidence long ago.

Logan said...

I am no expert by any means, but I have found most of the tragic cold cases "related" to Manson's crew to be quite tenuous in their connections, at best. Just one lurker's mostly uninformed opinion.
I think my opinion on the family-free validity of these cold cases being solidified derives from that great article about the (pretty much undisputed) Pugh suicide.
I am also recalling the incredibly cringey & disrespectful "History" documentary where the camera crew ambushes Steve grogan about the juvertson case & watches the dukes of hazzard/yahowha guy chainsmoke to dramatic effect. Or yalls work on the sad case of f. tenerelli.
It just doesn't seem plausible to me. People try to fit square pegs in round holes to justify their perverse armchair detective fantasies.
That being said, I am a huge admirer of yours, deb, and I appreciate you making this material available publicly so people can educate themselves. You really are a researcher & a historian par exellance, which, though of course I am no mansonologist by any means, I think is quite rare in this field.

Mr. Humphrat said...

thanks for your reply Deb.

Ajerseydevil said...

If anyone is interested in learning more about the Karl Stubbs murder of 1968 go to the good Col.'S website look up 4/31 2011 unfortunately the old write ups on our blog when it was still Evilz apparently no longer exists it brings you to a domain trying to sell the original Evilz manson family blog
If the information is correct & Tex Susan & Patty committed this murder all the way back in 68 it definitely pokes even more holes in the Helter Skelter theory

DebS said...

We still have some Karl Stubbs posts here at the blog.

https://www.mansonblog.com/2013/03/an-interview-with-karl-stubbs-neighbor.html

https://www.mansonblog.com/2015/04/olancha-karl-stubbs-neighbor-and-hannum.html

Also look at the Col.'s site as Ajerseydevil suggested.

starviego said...

Having read through the police report that DebS provided, I don't see much tying the Gaul/Sharpe murders to the Mansonoids. Since the killers picked up the victims while hitchhiking, it was the classic 'stranger on stranger' murder. Apparently the Bruce Davis connection, if it even existed, was just a coincidence.

GreenWhite said...

Yet another great article. Thank you. I often wonder about the possibly connected murders. Seems like there were an awful lot of slashers running around California at the time. Kinda terrifying. Has gun violence simply replaced the knife violence of that time?

starviego said...

GreenWhite said...
"I often wonder about the possibly connected murders. Seems like there were an awful lot of slashers running around California at the time."


The "possibly connected murders" seem to fall into two categories:

--murders that happened while the Family was nearby (Haught, Tenerelli, Stockton murders, Stubbs, Walts)

--murders done in the frenzied stab/overkill manner and that were relatively close to the scene of TLB (Habe, Jurvetson, Gaul/Sharpe)

But as Green has pointed out, there were a lot of other homicidal freaks running about.

Of the above I think Haught is a probable Family murder, Teneralli a possible, but the others? Meh, no corroborating evidence.

Ajerseydevil said...

Life magazine has a new special edition out on the 50th anniversary of the Manson murders at $14 it's a bit pricey for a magazine I got the original life magazine the love & terror cult 20 year's ago for $20 but the new issue has some great pics & definitely worthy edition to a collection for not a lot of money

Fiddy 8 said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ajZqoeC-So 15:09

Doug said...

I live in Vancouver and have been fortunate enough to get to hang out with both Norm Macdonald (3 days) and, Dave Chappelle (10 days).

Dave was just wanting to be low key, hang out, smoke weed and, not have a million people in his face. My 2 friends and I were encouraged to carry the jokes. We accomplished our mission the 1st 2 nights and, hung for the full 10 days.

Norm was on a whole other level. His way of processing and, creating humor 24/7 was beyond intense. He was thinking at a higher level and, at a continuous rate. Subtle and, razor sharp observations and, saying stuff that we had "comebacker moments" where we got the joke 15 to 30 seconds after they went down. He was incredible.

The only other comedian who I ever spent time with up close and personal who had that kind of gift was Rick Doucomenn (RIP) whom I knew primarily via he and his brother Peter's SKULL SKATES brand and, maybe 2 movies. He retired to raise his family. We hung out at his house in LA and skated his pool and, he was non-stop killing us with laughter.

Super gifted people

Doug said...

A more "murder-related" Norm Macdonald moment

https://youtu.be/2mhUIIhcTb8

GreenWhite said...

Starviego said...

"Of the above I think Haught is a probable Family murder, Teneralli a possible, but the others? Meh, no corroborating evidence."

The store employee id'ing Tex after the fact when she saw him on tv (added to the other info) makes me think he attacked and caused Stubbs' death. However, I just went back and re-read the posts on here and the Col's blog about Stubbs. The news reports and witnesses of the time weren't sure on the color of the killers' car or its state license plate. Or Stubbs' age. So who knows. Chaps my hide that the girls were laughing as he was kicked though. Awful people.

starviego said...

The timeline doesn't work for me on the Stubbs murder. The Family didn't really get into there dark, violent, apocalyptic phase until the spring of '69. They weren't really violent before then.

GreenWhite said...

Right but it doesn't mean Tex wasn't violent in 68. Maybe I just want there to be less terrible people in the world and I'm trying too hard to assign the murder to Watson though.

Trilby said...

Your posts are always great, Deb.
2 words on the Gaul/Sharp subject (& Jane Doe in Lompoc):
Victor.
Wild.
(currently aka Yachtboy.)

Trilby said...

Also, I forgot to say that that's an interesting tidbit about $cios in Bishop at that time, considering the Tenerelli murder, although I believe 100% Tex et al murdered him.
Also, there was a connection between Haught & the (alleged) Wild-led offshoot of the Process Omegas that ended up splitting time between Goleta & Topanga (important distinction - it wasn't a general-level offshoot, it was an "Omega project" (insert scowling face emoji here) - but I can't remember off the top of my head who told me that. Anybody who thinks Haught killed himself is simple-minded.

beauders said...

Trilby can you tell us more about Victor Wild and the Process Omega's? I finally got a hold of the Process Movie which is a great documentary but there is no mention of this stuff of course. I also saw it in it's one playing in Portland, Or. at a theater. I took my ultra conservative brother with me. It was fun to watch his reaction to the audience and the documentary.

beauders said...

PS when my ultra conservative brother graduated from high school in 1973, Bay Area he looked a lot like the white blond long haired Jesus Christ. Life changed him.

Peter said...

Changes all of us.

grimtraveller said...

Trilby said...

Anybody who thinks Haught killed himself is simple-minded

You say that like it's a bad thing !

beauders said...

Ya Grim is back

21 Days Stop Smoking Programme said...

Hi Grim. I don't comment much but please don't go. Your comments were one of the pleasures of reading this board.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

The sheer stupidity that somehow these loser slippies "got away with more murders" is a remnant of nonsense from BUG

There is a modicum of truth in that statement....but it really needs to be looked at in the context of the actual time. When you have people like Juan Flynn coming out saying that almost every discussion seemed to centre around killing {with Squeaky & Larry Jones actively coming to Spahn and threatening to kill him}, when you have rumours abounding that the fire in Paul Watkins camper was an attempt to kill him {and Clem saying, according to Watkins, that he was trying to off him}, when you take into account the Barbara Hoyt affair, the Hawthorne shootout and the rumours surrounding the idea behind that {whether it was actually true or rubbish}, Brenda and Crystal hooking up with guys who then actively murdered, Susan telling Virginia Graham that there were "more & more before....3 out in the desert and 11 that would never be solved" {and given that she was telling them about TLB, one can at least moot that she wasn't including them in that total}, when you think of Leslie telling Mike McGann that if Zero could be found playing Russian roulette, so could she...........then it's not hard to see why various killings in and around the area in the time they were together might be attributed to them. Whether bullshit or not, members of the Family acted like they were so unruly and against what they saw as the trappings of the current society that many people looking at them could easily conclude that they were responsible for more than what they were done for, even if the murders/deaths occurred in Kentucky {Col Scott's brother} or London {Joel Pugh} or a Sespe Hot Springs flash flood {Ron Hughes}. And when you consider Linda, Mary, Clem, Tex, Bill Vance, Larry Jones, TJ, Susan and Gypsy, all seen, effectively not having to answer for murders or attempted murders they were involved in {though I recognize, it is nuanced}, that adds weight to the notion that there is more to this than meets the eye. Manson gloating that the DA didn't put away a number of those involved in Shorty's murder {if he did say this to Emmons}, the words and poses of Squeaky, Sandy and Brenda in front of Robert Hendrickson's camera, the following of Bugliosi while clutching knives, Charlie attacking the Judge and all the statements Family bods made about the murders, sorry Col, one would have to be a supreme believer in the innate niceness of humanity to ignore at least the possibility that things didn't just start with Lotsapoppa getting popped.
But in the main, I see it as major overcompensation. Though LASO had Bobby, they didn't look into his associates as possible helpers in Gary's death and when Cielo happened and they did inform LAPD about Gary, they were poo~poo'd. No one even entertained Steve Zabriske's suggestion that "a Charlie and a Clem" did the murders when he told the cops in Portland. It wasn't even written up. When it turned out that this lot were in the running for the murders, the wind changed and they were mooted for everything and the problem with that is that while Bugliosi simply posed the question towards the end of "Helter Skelter," but was clear it was speculation and that there was no proof whatsoever {and in the case of Mark Walts, even tried to show why it wasn't the Family}, now it's a cottage industry with people trying to prove the unprovable and when they can't, still proceed with these matters as fact {or as near to fact as one dares to get}.

grimtraveller said...

Trilby said...

Anybody who thinks Haught killed himself is simple-minded

It's interesting contrasting the reactions of Leslie and Susan to the news of Zero. Leslie certainly implies that there was something untoward about his death and seems a little shaken by it. Susan on the other hand sees it as a thing of beauty.
It doesn't appear to have been reported to her by Country Sue as anything other than a suicide. Given Susan's views on death at the time, to exit the earth at one's own hand was almost the ultimate way to go.

Ajerseydevil said...

.....the Karl Stubbs murder of 1968...If ...Tex Susan & Patty committed this murder all the way back in 68 it definitely pokes even more holes in the Helter Skelter theory

Not really. Unless one wants to argue Charlie didn't know about Stubbs.

GreenWhite said...

I often wonder about the possibly connected murders. Seems like there were an awful lot of slashers running around California at the time

It was a big place. London is like that now.

starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
"There is a modicum of truth in that statement... ."

That was an excellent summary of post-Shea violent Mansonoid episodes, Grim!

Peter said...

Your slashers are all imported.

grimtraveller said...

Peter said...

Your slashers are all imported
Some of them are.
Of course, you don't know that none of the slashers in California in the late 60s/early 70s weren't either, at least from other states.

orwhut said...

Have any family members ever been convicted of a murder that wasn't instigated by Charlie?

I can't think of any but some were certainly connected with such or attempts at such. And of course, there is an on~going debate about Squeaky's intentions regarding President Ford.

GreenWhite said...

Has gun violence simply replaced the knife violence of that time?

When I was a kid growing up, the impression that virtually everyone I knew had of American crime was that it was primarily gun oriented. Even if there seemed to be a preponderence of knife murders in California in the period we're interested in, it strikes me that the gun crime thing in terms of American crime has never gone away or been overshadowed, at least in the perception of us outsiders. All of the Family murders {+ Poppa} except Shorty's involved guns.

Right but it doesn't mean Tex wasn't violent in 68

True, but if he was, has anyone that he was actually close to definitively come out and pointed at any violent Tex incidents ? I mean, loads of people have come out and spoken of Charlie's violence. Even Squeaky testified on the stand about being hit by Charlie and Sandy was quoted in the papers about being dragged about by the hair by Charlie. That they both said they deserved it is by the by. Men and women both told such stories. Brooks Poston was even telling the Police about Charlie's violence before the Barker arrests. But apart from one Cathy Gillies tale about Tex threatening to kill her if she went off on her own again, zilch regarding him. And that was a threat, no requisite action.

Maybe....I'm trying too hard to assign the murder to Watson though

Easily done. I think it comes from a rather common phenomena regarding this case though; it is simply almost impossible, certainly extremely difficult, for most of us to believe that someone, let alone a group of people, could commit murder just like that {or seemingly so} ~ "told" to do it at 11pm with no premeditation and be done and dusted by 1am with 5 corpses left trailing in one's wake. Logically, someone that acted as bloodthirstily as Tex had to have done this before, right ?
On the other hand, maybe some of the facts/details/ideas in this case tells us some uncomfortable truths about human nature that we have a hard time facing up to, especially when we factor in that such darkness may be lurking in us all.

Gorodish said...

Hey welcome back Grim.....I figured you'd be back after tiring of the "Let's Lynch Leslie" mob over at cielodrive.com

Grimtraveller typed:

Manson gloating that the DA didn't put away a number of those involved in Shorty's murder {if he did say this to Emmons}

A perfect example of Manson's "speaking the truth in riddles". The accessories to Shorty's murder were fairly numerous : Vance's and Jones/Bailey/Giddings' presence at his killing; Susan cleaning his blood from the bushes; Leslie (and possibly others) ditching his clothes and possessions, Gypsy ditching his car in the Valley with Brenda following; and, of course, Tex as his main assailant.

Gorodish said...

Grimtraveller typed:

it is simply almost impossible, certainly extremely difficult, for most of us to believe that someone, let alone a group of people, could commit murder just like that {or seemingly so} ~ "told" to do it at 11pm with no premeditation and be done and dusted by 1am with 5 corpses left trailing in one's wake. Logically, someone that acted as bloodthirstily as Tex had to have done this before, right ?

This is basically what California Parole Board Commissioner John Peck has hammered Tex with at his last few hearings. Here's Peck from the 2016 hearing :
"Why were you susceptible to that? Why when the violence started why -- and it's really hard for me to believe because I've doing this for a million years. It's really hard for me to believe that the day before the crime or a few days before the crime all of a sudden Mr. Manson goes to you and say hey, guess what, here's what I want you to do. And you were like, I'm good if there wasn't some sort of planning, if there wasn't some sort of guess what, this is what we're going to do because you know you climbed up a telephone pole and you cut a telephone wire. You didn't cut all the power off to the house and you didn't electrocute yourself. I probably would have electrocuted myself if I would have done that for the first time. So there must have been something where you knew what you were doing and then you knew how to get into the house. You knew how to round up all the victims, you knew how to do whatever you were planning on doing. And you know something? It doesn't make sense to me with my 40 years of law enforcement that this just happened right before this thing went down. I don't -- I thought maybe if we talked about the skits you were going to tell me about going into other houses and desensitizing yourself but you said that never happened. So how could a guy like you do this all without practice? Here's your gun, here's your knife, here are the girls, go kill people. Why? How did this happen? How could this happen?"
"Maybe if a guy came in that was a gang member that lived in East L.A. that did a drive-by and he told me I had a significant loss. I had no goals, I was medicating my pain because I was (inaudible), you know, and searching for answers, right, and I shot the guy and I feel real bad about it. Maybe I'm like yeah, okay, but that's not you. That's not your case. That's not your situation. I'm not raising my voice because I'm angry or anything. I'm just raising it because I want you to -- I want everybody to kind of hear what I'm saying. I need you to dig a little deeper. I'm not comfortable with letting you out with the answers that you gave me. I would not sleep tonight. I would be worried for everyone because these are not the answers that I think the public and what the Parole Board would expect. We want to know what was going on in your head that would allow you to do this. I think you did yourself a little bit of a disservice the last time you came to the Board because then we could have kind of got you on the path then so that's my thoughts. Get more insight; get some more understanding. I'm concerned that without that understanding there certainly is a nexus to current dangerousness."


Perhaps, the reality is that Tex just does not have an answer to any of this.

beauders said...

Hey Grim, it was Dianne Lake Tex threatened in Olancha, not Catherine Gilles.

starviego said...

Gorodish said...
This is basically what California Parole Board Commissioner John Peck has hammered Tex with at his last few hearings. ...

Interesting. His view is that the crime must have had extensive planning and preparation, maybe even practice. So it was much more of a premeditated thing than something cooked-up at the last minute.

Gorodish said...

beauders typed:

Hey Grim, it was Dianne Lake Tex threatened in Olancha, not Catherine Gilles.

Grim is correct. According to Ed Sanders' "The Family", in the days just prior to Gary Hinman's murder, and just after Ella Jo Bailey fled Spahn, Cathy Gillies went off by herself without telling anyone. When she returned, Tex threatened her by telling her "Don't you ever leave here without telling someone where you're going...next time I'll kill you, your life means nothing to me!". The source for this was supposedly Linda Kasabian. Later on, in early September, Tex raged at Dianne Lake out in Olancha when she vanished for a day....she'd been picked up by an Inyo County Sheriff's deputy.

grimtraveller said...

beauders said...

it was Dianne Lake Tex threatened in Olancha, not Catherine Gilles

The story I was thinking of was definitely Cathy Gillies. I couldn't recall where I'd come across it when I mentioned it but I've seen it a few times. I remember being surprised by it being Cathy that was threatened because up until the time I first read the account, I'd always thought of her as pretty hardcore in the Family stakes.

Gorodish said...

I figured you'd be back after tiring of the "Let's Lynch Leslie" mob over at cielodrive.com

I was never intending to disappear for good but I fancied lurking for a while. It was tempting to comment sometimes but I didn't want to continually repeat myself, which can be one of the occupational hazards of commenting a lot on a TLB site over a number of years !
The contributors over at Cielo's site are an interesting bunch and over the last year or so, there have been some intensely fought debates there. Some of them have little to say that's of any consequence but there's also some keen and interesting minds there, like here really. There were times when I'd be bouncing between there, here and LSB at the same time, engaged in meaty debates and I fancied a break from all the sites for a bit. I'd still check in to read what people were saying pretty much each day though. That's what was sometimes hard, not replying to things I know I could have written a thesis on ! Maybe you were all spared !!

Perhaps, the reality is that Tex just does not have an answer to any of this

I don't think he does. John Peck spoke for many when he said "And you know something? It doesn't make sense to me with my 40 years of law enforcement that this just happened right before this thing went down. I don't..I thought maybe if we talked about the skits you were going to tell me about going into other houses and desensitizing yourself but you said that never happened. So how could a guy like you do this all without practice? Here's your gun, here's your knife, here are the girls, go kill people. Why? How did this happen? How could this happen?
Maybe if a guy came in that was a gang member that lived in East L.A. that did a drive-by and he told me I had a significant loss. I had no goals, I was medicating my pain because I was...you know, and searching for answers, right, and I shot the guy and I feel real bad about it. Maybe I'm like yeah, okay, but that's not you. That's not your case. That's not your situation. I'm not raising my voice because I'm angry or anything. I'm just raising it because I want you to..I want everybody to kind of hear what I'm saying. I need you to dig a little deeper. I'm not comfortable with letting you out with the answers that you gave me. I would not sleep tonight. I would be worried for everyone because these are not the answers that I think the public and what the Parole Board would expect. We want to know what was going on in your head that would allow you to do this."

I made the point last summer that him and Pat face eternal problems on this as far as parole goes because unlike Leslie, they can't explain their evolution.
Funnily, I can understand it and I'd have no worries about either ever lapsing back into that kind of scenario again. The thing with Tex is that the life journey he's been on since 1975 kind of makes the how and why that led to summer '69 kind of irrelevant, yet it's the very thing that's kept him on a fairly stable path for 44 years that prevents him from being paroled. That's why I've been saying for a while, that's irony.

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Interesting. His view is that the crime must have had extensive planning and preparation, maybe even practice. So it was much more of a premeditated thing than something cooked-up at the last minute

The problem I have with John Peck's view is that it's so predictable and wrapped up in neat little bundles and does not have any way of dealing with something that's out of the box. And in life, there are actually quite a few things that are out of the box and don't lend themselves to the logical and straightforward.
I read this interesting article about the CIA and its cultural frame of reference in relation to 9/11 and while I don't agree with everything that the writer mooted, it was valuable food for thought and it echoed something I've seen time and time again in life, going back to when I was a teenager. Sometimes, looking within the box is the right thing to do and probably most of the time, addresses the specific issues/problems that have arisen.
But not always.
Most true crime I've read about is pretty logical and straightforward. The Manson case is anything but. That's not to say that it doesn't have easily graspable portions ~ it has lots of those. It also has parts that are as paradoxical as one is likely to find.

DebS said...

Here are some very graphic crime scene photos.....Do not open if you are the least bit queasy or object to these type of photos

Some of those are horrible. I'm glad I've already eaten.

Gorodish said...

The accessories to Shorty's murder were fairly numerous

It's easy to see why none of them were done for their parts though Gypsy, Susan and Tex could have been prosecuted. Tex certainly could if Mary had played ball. Gypsy and Susan both admitted to the police that they'd been involved in the clean up. But in the long run, the law dealt with all three anyway.

starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
The contributors over at Cielo's site are an interesting bunch and over the last year or so, there have been some intensely fought debates there.

Does anybody have a link to said forum?

Doug said...

GRIM!!!

Welcome Back!

...your dreams were your ticket out...

Off topic question for you - Did you see "Once Upon A Time In Hollywood" yet?

If yes - please post your thoughts at the earlier post about the film

Cheers

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

Does anybody have a link to said forum?

I'd have thought just typing in Cielo Drive or Cielodrive.com would get you there but, hey.

Doug said...

Did you see "Once Upon A Time In Hollywood" yet?

No. I find most movies kind of boring. All through the summer, everywhere I went, it was advertised. It felt like just about every bus I saw had it plastered all over.
I've watched many biopics in my time but I reached a point where I had to ask myself why I watched them and then just complained after ! So I stopped watching them. I know the film in question isn't a biopic but it does partially have the events we regularly talk about as a kind of side salad. When I read the thread[s] about the film here and elsewhere, I didn't feel I'd missed anything.


starviego said...

grimtraveller said...
I'd have thought just typing in Cielo Drive or Cielodrive.com would get you there but, hey.

OK, I see the facebook page, which I guess is their forum site. Thanks for the link.


"Did you see "Once Upon A Time In Hollywood" yet?"

The movie was a crushing bore.