Monday, July 13, 2020

Suzan LaBerge's daughter murdered

Suzan LaBerge married Henry Wolk November 6, 1976 in Los Angeles.  On September 26, 1979 Suzan and Henry had a daughter, Ariana Jean Wolk in Nevada County California.

This July 3rd Ariana was murdered in Denver Colorado where she was living.  The details are slim, Ariana was stabbed to death in the South Park Hill neighborhood and was pronounced dead at 5:45 AM on the 3rd.

On July 7th police arrested Jose Maria Sandoval-Romero, 24, in Colorado Springs for the crime.  He has been charged with first degree murder.  The arrest affidavit remains sealed and a mug shot of the suspect has not been released because the investigation is ongoing.

Feelers are out for more information and hopefully we can update the post.

Our sincerest condolences to Suzan and Ariana's father.  It's unimaginable to lose both a mother and daughter in the same horrific manner.

Denver Post article

Thanks to blog reader Chef Chris for the tip.

UPDATE:

Article

DENVER (CBS4) – Fingerprints found on a cup helped lead detectives to the suspect in a Denver homicide. The Denver District Attorney’s Office announced on Thursday that Jose Sandoval-Romero is under arrest and facing a murder charge in the fatal stabbing of 40-year-old Ariana Wolk earlier this month.

Wolk was killed on July 3 in her apartment on the 1500 block of Oneida Street, just off East Colfax Avenue. First responders found her lying in a pool of blood in her bed and said she had been stabbed in the neck.

Three days later, Sandoval-Romero was arrested in Colorado Springs.

Authorities said they reviewed video from the night of the murder that showed Sandoval-Romero and Wolk together. Sandoval-Romero was holding a cup in the video. That cup was found in Wolk’s yard and fingerprints of Sandoval-Romero’s that were allegedly found on the cup helped detectives pinpoint him as a suspect.

A statement from the DA’s office indicates Sandoval-Romero confessed to the crime. Authorities say he told investigators that he ditched his clothes, which got bloody during the crime, and fled to Colorado Springs afterwards.

UPDATE July 21 2020

There have been two Go Fund Me pages created by Ariana's sister Rommi to help with funeral expenses and to set up a fund for Ariana's son.

This one is for Ariana's son.

This one is for the funeral expenses.

Thanks, Panamint Patty for letting us know about the pages.

56 comments:

Fayez Abedaziz said...

And so, yet another murder in the Denver area and many others in towns across
Colorado.
That's what you see when you go to local news here in the Denver area.
But now, I am really upset about Ariana's murder.
I really can't write much more now, as I feel stressed at this news. It jars my mind, with her being Susan LaBerge's daughter, and as to this poor lady, a victim of another lowlife scum.
I know that street and that corner. Several days ago, a friend and I drove by there on the way to a restaurant. It's actually Colfax Avenue, a long, mostly seedy stretch of a main street running through Denver and is the longest street in America.
I'll be back, this is so damn bad and, well, I'll say more about it later. damn it all

Eydie Gorme said...

Suzan's daughter looks exactly like Rosemary LaBianca when Rosemary LaBianca was young. Very creepy situation.

Eydie Gorme said...

How sad for Suzan to lose both her mom and beautiful daughter in much the same way.

Panamint Patty said...

You got big balls coming in here

Mr. Humphrat said...

That's terrible.

Ajerseydevil said...

What's wrong Patty who's got you so upset

Dan S said...

Ooo sounds juicy

Doug said...

I thought that also. Especially in some of the other photos I saw online.

Horrendous tragedy

Doug said...

Or, mo balls!

Gorodish said...

Steve Lawrence turned 85 a few days ago.

Unknown said...

Who was Suzan LaBerge?

DebS said...

Suzan LaBerge is Rosemary LaBianca's daughter. At the time of the murders Suzan was using the last name of Struthers, the same as her half brother Frank. Rosemary was married to a Charles LaBerge when she had Suzan. She then married Frank Struthers Sr. and had Frank Jr. After that marriage ended Rosemary married Leno LaBianca. It's not so much a family tree as it is ground cover.

Proteus said...

Weird fact: Manson's track 'Close to Me' (on the "The Summer of Hate – the '67 Sessions" album) closely sampled Eydie Gormé's song 'Sabor a Mi' on her album "Eydie Gorme Canta en Español Con Los Panchos". It's an interesting track - Manson like I never heard before, with guitar work going beyond his usual strumming, though of course it may not be him playing guitar.

I don't know much about this album of Manson's. Was it perhaps based on material recorded with/by Carl and Brian Wilson? There's a story that he recorded professionally with them and the recordings are (where they are always in the Manson World) still in a vault somewhere. Presumably, not the same vault as the 'Family Jams' masters.

Wikipedia says of the album that "It was the first release of the complete recordings that were made in a rehearsal studio on September 11, 1967, that went on to be used as demos in an effort to secure a recording deal". I wouldn't know, but maybe someone here does?

Ben Gurecki said...

I am quite positive that Al Jardine currently possesses this master tape. I know that it has made its was out in the past year.

CarolMR said...

Beautiful girl. RIP and prayers for Suzan and family.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

There are few details available to the public about what led to the arrest of the
accused fella, that is, to the murder of Ariana, so far.

These guys, the killers,not to be referred to as men, really piss me off.
Cowardly attacks by stabbings and shooting someone takes a repulsive, disgusting not fit to live jackass.

But it is getting even more out of control in cities across the nation.
Here, poor, (please rest her in peace, lord) Ariana was one of at least seven murders in one week in the Denver area. And, for years I've been bragging about Denver being one of the safest cities in what used to be the 'land of the free.'
The criminals all over have guns, whether they have money or not, but they keep chipping away at our right to bear arms.

The thing is, there is so much crime that we constantly keep running across those that have some sort of a tie in-such as Ariana with the whole Manson saga, so to speak, including crimes in a nearby neighborhood, or someone we knew.
Just as some trivia, or whatever you wanna call it:
the fella that I enjoyed having coffee and conversations with, at a coffee shop, well, his brother knew Gary Hinman's family in the Grand Junction area and, this fella also worked for a time, in the 70's, 80's in a auto glass shop down the street from what is the murder scene of Ariana, at the intersection of Oneida St. and Colfax Ave. (1500 Oneida) He said that when he would take a lunch break, he and other workers would go to a Village Inn restaurant (the national chain of) down the street. One day, a customer at a nearby table said to him, "see those guys at that table? That's a new band from England." (as most Americans refer to the area we know is the UK) He said the band's name is U2.
It wasn't till years later that the band became famous to most rock/pop fans.
The place is now an Auto Zone store.
Just north and south of Colfax, again 1500 Oneida technically, the houses on both sides of the street have long been middle class houses. Of course they are quite old by now. There are stretches of Colfax that are okay, then there are sections that are not, but still, not a good street, as long as it's stretch goes, to be on after say, midnight.
We shall see what led to the encounter that led ugly brain guy to murder Ariana.
Hopefully, those that are better pursuers/researchers than I am will find more. information soon.

J Pinnacle said...

@Proteus

>>Weird fact: Manson's track 'Close to Me' (on the "The Summer of Hate – the '67 Sessions" album) closely sampled Eydie Gormé's song 'Sabor a Mi' on her album "Eydie Gorme Canta en Español Con Los Panchos". It's an interesting track - Manson like I never heard before, with guitar work going beyond his usual strumming, though of course it may not be him playing guitar.

I don't know much about this album of Manson's. Was it perhaps based on material recorded with/by Carl and Brian Wilson? There's a story that he recorded professionally with them and the recordings are (where they are always in the Manson World) still in a vault somewhere. Presumably, not the same vault as the 'Family Jams' masters.

Wikipedia says of the album that "It was the first release of the complete recordings that were made in a rehearsal studio on September 11, 1967, that went on to be used as demos in an effort to secure a recording deal". I wouldn't know, but maybe someone here does?<<

Hi there, long time lurker here-- I typically only chip in when it comes to the musical angles. The session you're referring to took place under the auspices of producer Gary Stromberg in Hollywood on November 9th, 1967 at either Universal or Gold Star studios. The confusion with the date stems from its listing as 09.11.67-- Americans would read this as September 11, 1967 but in England for example it denotes November 9.

Stromberg in a recent podcast interview stated that the session was held at Gold Star, but Lyn Fromme in her book indicates the studio was on the Universal lot. I tend to believe Lyn here, as Gold Star was known for a particular sound linked to its echo chamber which I don't hear on the Manson tapes in question.

Regardless, this was indeed a trial session used to audition Charlie for a contract with Universal's new UNi imprint. Stromberg and UNi VP Russ Regan (also present at the session) apparently didn't hear enough to warrant a deal for Charlie, though in a letter from prison written to William Dakota, Manson mentioned Stromberg wanting to pair him with jazz trumpeter Hugh Masekela and percussionist Big Black, to which Charlie objected saying that he "don't mix races" or words to that effect.

Manson would indeed have been playing guitar at the session, as it was just him and a few of the girls: Mary, Lyn and Katie if memory serves.

The sessions at Brian Wilson's Bellagio Road home studio occurred later on. Beach Boys engineer Stephen Desper recalls one particular session from 1969 shortly before the murders where he recorded just Charlie on acoustic for twelve songs, but there's further anecdotal evidence from people like Brooks Poston and Dianne Lake that sessions at Brian's house were occurring as early as 1968 during the period that Family members were staying over at Dennis's pad in Pacific Palisades. Dennis and Gregg Jakobson also booked additional time for Charlie and various Family Jams members at outside studios around Hollywood, which I believe is where the majority of the material on the LIE album emanates from.

Of course these Beach Boys studio sessions are the holy grail for Manson music collectors such as myself, but the odds of them ever seeing the light of day are infinitely minuscule-- too many bad vibrations and potentially negative PR for "America's Band" to ever revisit them.

Sorry for side-railing the thread topic; just thought I'd clarify since the question was asked.


Proteus said...

Many Thanks, Pinnacle, for the detailed and fascinating info. I am always interested in the 'quality' in some of the girls' singing, but never know who is singing on any given track. But I doubt that any detailed track listing is ever going to surface now.,

Matthew said...

Pinnacle said:
Manson would indeed have been playing guitar at the session, as it was just him and a few of the girls: Mary, Lyn and Katie if memory serves.

Would Gypsy also be on these recordings. She joined up with Bobby in 67 but don't know what exact month she would have been singing with them. On the 69 recordings you can clearly hear her voice.

A lot of interesting information in your post. Thank you.

J Pinnacle said...

@Matthew

>>Would Gypsy also be on these recordings. She joined up with Bobby in 67 but don't know what exact month she would have been singing with them. On the 69 recordings you can clearly hear her voice.

A lot of interesting information in your post. Thank you.<<

Thanks Matthew. No, the Stromberg sessions were pre-Gypsy and Bobby. I don't have my timeline handy right now, but I want to say he first hooked up with Bobby in Topanga the following month, and Gypsy didn't enter the fold until spring of '68. (There's a hilarious video online where she describes her first meeting with Manson, how he picked her up in Topanga before driving her to Dennis Wilson's majestic beachfront estate and uttering this classic Charlie bon mot upon arrival: "this is your dream, girl-- start living it!"

I'm not sure how well received Lyn's book was around these parts, but I find it utterly indispensable as a guide to what the Family was up to during the first year or so of their existence. It fills in a lot of gaps in the chronology and clarifies important events such as how Dean and Ruth Anne actually got introduced. Well worth reading, IMO.

The story of the UNi (stylized font theirs) label is pretty interesting as well. It was started up by Ned Tannen in 1967 as Universal's first foray into the emerging "new music" scene, and they heavily favored west coast artists on their roster. In addition to the previously mentioned Hugh Masekela and Big Black, they were home to the Strawberry Alarm Clock (whose "Incense & Peppermints" was topping the U.S. singles charts roundabout the time Charlie was in the studio with Stromberg) and a host of other local psychedelic club bands like the Daily Flash, the Rainy Daze and Lowell George's first group the Factory. Eventually they would go on to sign Neil Diamond and Elton John and support for these smaller groups would dry up as the label's efforts went towards promoting those superstars, but at the time (late '67) UNi would probably have made a good home for Manson if he had just been open to working with a producer and the label instead of fighting so hard to maintain career autonomy. (Incidentally, Russ Regan who was the label's head of A&R was the man who gave the Beach Boys their name back in 1961-- another in a long list of connections.)

St. Circumstance said...

Pinnacle this is VERY interesting to me too lol... I came into this case myself all those years ago through both the Scientology and musical connections. You have given more here than I have ever heard before on these subjects.

Thank you very much for sharing :)

Doug said...

Thought a little musical interlude would bf kinda nice

https://youtu.be/untx8e7URMw

Happy Birthday Roky

RIP


Rock N. Roll said...

Has anyone heard or know if Charlie knew Lowell George? He lived very close to the LaBianca’s, just a few streets below Waverly.

St. Circumstance said...

Rock N. Roll....

I have been trying for over 15 years to factually link Charlie to the Rock Cliques of those times. It is possible to link him to Laurel Canyon generally, but hard to find real proof of him with anyone specifically. Nobody had phones with cameras back then, and nobody would talk about it after the murders. However, the few who had admitted to, or CAN be proved, to have spending time with Charlie- make it certain he was at the same place/time as a few major players in the music industry.

Through Neil Young we know Charlie played at the Topanga Corral (Probably just a few performances he did there with Bobby) We also know Lowell George played there all the time. It is more likely to me that they would have encountered each other there than in the Waverly area, or at least- it would be far easier to prove at this point.

St. Circumstance said...

Rock... also:

From a post Dreath did in May of 2017 on this blog You should go back and read if this interests you:

"The LaBianca murders happened just a half-mile up from Lowell’s house on Ben Lomond," Payne recalls with a shudder. "I was sleeping in Lowell’s VW van outside his house at the time, and although it was like 100 degrees in there, I didn’t dare open the windows, I was so freaked out. Then, a few months later, up in Isla Vista, some maniac was hacking people up with an ax, right on the beach where I’d been sleeping. That was a weird year, 1969."

Van Dyke Parks tells a related story: "I attempted to write some songs with Lowell, one called ‘Are the Stars Out Tonight?’ We went to a trailer out in Topanga, a teardrop-shaped thing, ovoid, like an Airstream. There was a note on the wall: ‘I'll be right back. – Charlie.’ I said, "Who is that?" He said, ‘Charles Manson.’ And I said, ‘What are we doing here?’ He said, ‘Oh, no, that was several months ago.’"


Little Feat/2000/Bud Scoppa/Rhino Records/The Little Feat Saga

Matthew said...

Pinnacle said:
I'm not sure how well received Lyn's book was around these parts, but I find it utterly indispensable as a guide to what the Family was up to during the first year or so of their existence. It fills in a lot of gaps in the chronology and clarifies important events such as how Dean and Ruth Anne actually got introduced. Well worth reading, IMO.

I thought it was a great book. I thought it had a sad undertone, as I am sure that those days before no record deal/ lotsapoppa and total paranoia Lyn was in her utopia. It seems that she still morns the loss of those days.

Trilby said...

Was this the same daughter nicknamed Romi to whom Suzan was abusive & after Child Protective Services got involved, went to live with her father Chuck Wolk? The son was named Lyle & was youmger IIRC, but I can't recall if Suzan had 1 daughter or 2. Maybe Romi was the oldest child & this was a different daughter. Either way, RIP.

Trilby said...

"younger", sorry for failure to proofread.

AustinAnn74 said...

This is horrible!!!! What the hell?! That is so weird. I cannot imagine how devastated Suzan & her family are. I'm also stunned at how much Ariana looked like her grandmother, Rosemary LaBianca. Very beautiful girl.

kraut_iznota_knotsy said...

Suspect who confessed is 24 yrs old
Ariana Wolk was 40.

Just struck me a little hinky, no PC or trolling please.

Rock N. Roll said...

Thanks St!
I think Marjorie Cameron also hung out at the Corral. It sounds amazing.

Ajerseydevil said...

Saint that sounds like a chapter Ed Sanders forgot to include in his 1st edition of the Family

St. Circumstance said...

Hey JerseyDevil.. I grew up off exit 8 lol

I do agree with you. Sanders tried to make an already strange story even stranger and this sounds very much the same.

But - they were both hanging around Topanga at about the same time and Charlie did hang around the Corral so you really never know. We would have to go back to that book Dreath quoted and dig further...

Not my bag anymore :)

St. Circumstance said...

But I beg forgiveness for not mentioning in all these comments my sincere condolences for all family affected by this stupid, senseless crime.

Sigh...

grimtraveller said...

kraut_iznota_knotsy said...

Suspect who confessed is 24 yrs old, Ariana Wolk was 40. Just struck me a little hinky, no PC or trolling please

On the other hand, I have 4 fingers and a thumb........
I'm curious as to why you think that is a little hinky. Quite a few of my friends are/were 10 ~ 16 years younger than me and quite a few of my friends were 10 ~ 35 years older than me. If one works, say, in a centre or facility with kids/teens and you get to know some of them well, some friendships can strike up and don't just cut off when they are no longer part of the centre or facility. Similarly, if one works in a school there is a wide variety of ages among staff. You could have newly qualified teachers at 23 or 24 getting on well with teachers or teaching assistants in their 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s and friendships {and more} developing. The same is true of sports teams, musical set ups, hospitals/surgeries, council departments and in universities and many other situations.
I find that there's often an undercurrent on TLB sites of viewing relationships/friendships where there are wide age disparities with suspicion because someone like Charlie Manson hung out with {and in many cases was quite abusive in the way he dealt with} people that were quite a bit younger than him and then later the Roman Polanski stuff comes up and all that goes with that. But one should be careful to not look at age disparity relationships/friendships through the lens of some having abused or "taken advantage" of those younger than them because they're not all in that vein.

grimtraveller said...

J Pinnacle said...

I'm not sure how well received Lyn's book was around these parts, but I find it utterly indispensable as a guide to what the Family was up to during the first year or so of their existence. It fills in a lot of gaps in the chronology and clarifies important events such as how Dean and Ruth Anne actually got introduced. Well worth reading, IMO

It is definitely well worth reading. In a curious way, all the books by ex Family members are even though the more we have, the more contradictions we find.
Matt did it as a series over a few weeks and it got a kind of mixed reception here, from what I can recall.
It was Lyn's view and no one can or should take that away from her but one of the things I found interesting was that it came over very strongly that she saw things as she wanted to see them as opposed to how they might have been. Unless she was outright lying, she had very little idea of Charlie's interaction with other Family members or what other people felt and in the end lent weight to something I've felt for a long while which is that the Family's "togetherness" and "oneness" has become somewhat mythologized. In a way, it's logical ~ if you're putting aside your past and erasing who you were then your feelings and thoughts become kind of unimportant. I don't think they knew each other as well as the impression that was given at the time the Family were in their pomp.
Lyn also takes a certain "Family line" without realizing that people aren't stupid and can work things out. For example, stating that Bobby was the father of Linda's second child. There's only one reason that carries any significance ~ it places Kasabian front and centre of the copycat scheme. Yet Bobby as the dad is a biological impossibility which then throws more than just doubt on Lyn bringing it up. It makes one focus on the 'why' and ultimately brings down the very thing she tries to achieve. There's quite a bit of that in the book.
That said, I liked it. There were some interesting surprises in it. A lot of it felt like a mum's idyllic view of her son in the way some mum's just can't see anything wrong that their sons have done.

grimtraveller said...

Trilby said...

Was this the same daughter nicknamed Romi to whom Suzan was abusive & after Child Protective Services got involved, went to live with her father Chuck Wolk?

Do you have solid links to this info ?

Trilby said...

Yes, Grim. The creep-yet-info-digger Bill Nelson wrote about it when he was researching (& stalking) Suzan. Also interviewed the ex-husband, neighbors, etc. "Manson Behind the Scenes" Have to go dig my copy out of the box it's stored in. I should have done that before I posted originally, tbh. Lazy. Sorry. Will do later today & post info. Hope you are well, Grim.

Trilby said...

2/ Grim, I just found my copy of the book & looked it up. Rommi was the oldest daughter & Ariana the middle child. Lyle the son the youngest. So not the same daughter. And yes, much confirmation aka "receipts" in there of Suzan's abuse and involvement of Child Services including copies of letters from ex-husband documenting it. IMO Suzan is a horrible person & again JMO but I think she was connected to the muders (allegedly). At the least, her mother feared her according to Rosemary's late best friend & biz partner. Feel sorrow over innocent Arianna's fate but no respect for Suzan - NONE.

DebS said...

Grim and Kraut

The information in the articles leaves a lot out of the story. While Ariana and Sandoval-Romero were seen together on a video it doesn't say where or what time. Presumably it was outside and in a public area where there were businesses, perhaps near Ariana's home. We don't know if Ariana invited him into her home or if she left him at her doorstep, denying him entrance into her home. The cup that he was seen holding was found in her yard not in her home. Most people would not blatantly litter in a friends yard and if they were invited into the home would discard the cup appropriately in the trash can in the house.

For all we know Ariana could have told Sandoval-Romero she wasn't interested in having him in her home and he got pissed and came back later to confront her.

The time of the discovery of her body is interesting. She was pronounced dead at 5:45 AM but the articles don't say who called in the crime. Did she phone 911 herself, did she have a roommate who called, was there a child in the home who could have called??? It's not as if she was killed in a public place where anyone could have called it in, she was in her home. The call to her home could have been been made an hour or so before she was declared dead. The pre-dawn hours are not a time when one would expect a friend to stop by and discover the crime and make the 911 call.

Lots of information is missing from the articles so at this point I don't think we can presume anything including my speculations.

ColScott said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColScott said...

Suzan caused great pain to Doris Tate by advocating for Tex's release. Her daughter did not deserve this. But fuck Suzan hard.

Did anyone figure out what Patty's brainfart was about?

Based on experience when you date someone that young who has not matured, and you have, when you cut them off from the nookie their brains react super emotionally. Seems to be the case here

grimtraveller said...

Trilby said...

Hope you are well, Grim

Thanks for the info; I'm Ok at the moment. How have you been getting on ?

DebS said...

The information in the articles leaves a lot out of the story. While Ariana and Sandoval-Romero were seen together on a video it doesn't say where or what time

Mine was more a general comment on the way age disparities are often viewed. For all we know, Ariana and Sandoval~Romero might not even have known each other.

ColScott said...

Suzan caused great pain to Doris Tate by advocating for Tex's release

I've always felt Suzan was wrong about that but not the over-arching forgiveness that gave rise to it. It showed how God can impact a person's reality yet at the same time that person still has to think for themselves and make their own moves which can turn out to be right or wrong ones, in retrospect.
Forgiveness however, is a great thing and Suzan knew that at that point, her entire existence as a Christian was predicated on the acknowledgement that she'd been forgiven by God.

ColScott said...

Grim You Ignorant Slut

Molesto Nelson always felt there was a connection between Suzan and the killers via BF Joe Dorgnan (sp?) Do not make me support Molesto he was the definition of human scum. That BUG endorsed his books speaks volumes about that Postman stalking lunatic.

Tex's conversion is cynical bullshit. Suzan advocating for his release after a very short time was likewise
Some crimes don't get forgiven, Stabbing my mom. Stabbing a 9 mo pregnant woman. And fuck any god anywhere who says that shit is forgiveable.

David said...

Grim said: "It was Lyn's view and no one can or should take that away from her ........."

Aaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!! [long undulating Lovecraftian scream.]

Oh my fucking God!

That book was pure fiction and propaganda by someone who is still afraid of a murder rap.

Someone who saw women beaten by that little prick and still loves him.

Someone who could tell us quite a bit but didn't because, well, because she was there, that night.

Th evidence says she likely put the rope and the bolt cutters and the knives in the car. Let's ask her.

Instead, the gal who took a pot shot at a President says....it was all love and sex and flowers....leaving out the guns we have on video.

Stop it. Does her actual life story, the one on film, sound like the flowers or the fiction she wrote? They were not hippies .

They were all dark, lost, souls who fell for a millennial, charismatic leader and murdered people to make him 'whole'. They believed the messiah and loved him.

Right 'Lyn'?

Ok, yes, Grimm, if her book is truly what she believes happened, as written. I can forgive her dementia and I apologize for making sport of it.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Grim You Ignorant Slut

I'm thinking of getting that embossed on my passport once I renew my "no longer part of the EU" one that's now expired.

Tex's conversion is cynical bullshit

The irony of your own cynicism there is fortunately not lost on those that know.

Suzan advocating for his release after a very short time was likewise

21 years is not a very short time.
That said, I don't recall arguing either here or elsewhere that her coming out to bat for him in 1990 was a good thing. But I can understand why she did it.

Some crimes don't get forgiven, Stabbing my mom.....And fuck any god anywhere who says that shit is forgiveable

Well, I'm thankful to God that you are not God and don't get to decide what is and what should never be. 🙌


David said...

Aaaaaahhhhhhh!!!! Oh my fucking God! Stop it

Which bit David ? The parts where I in essence agree with pretty much what you've outlined there ?

That book was pure fiction and propaganda by someone who is still afraid of a murder rap. Someone who could tell us quite a bit but didn't

Did you get around to reading it in the end ? I only ask because the last thing I remember you saying about it was that you weren't going to read it and that you were offering your copy to anyone that would pay the postage.

the gal who took a pot shot at a President

Did she miss ? 😂

Does her actual life story, the one on film, sound like the flowers or the fiction she wrote?

Well, here's the thing. There's a tiny bit of her on film and it's hardly her life story. And I will stand by my view that every human being has the freedom to see their life how they choose and to recount it how they choose. Just as I have the freedom to believe or not believe parts of the tale and to comment on which bits I believe and why and call someone out on what I don't believe with reasons why.

David said...

Grim said: "Did you get around to reading it in the end ?"

I had just reorganized my sock drawer and it was all that was left on my 'to do' list.

Grim said: "Well, here's the thing......"

That is likely because we come from different backgrounds. As I have said too many times a jury (and as readers of posts, books etc. we are the 'jury') always has the right to disbelieve everything a witness says if they find the witness to be dishonest as to one thing. Thus, for me, it was fiction a rewrite of history that would impress Winston Smith.

Proteus said...

Thus, for me, it was fiction a rewrite of history that would impress Winston Smith.

By the end of the novel Winston Smith was beyond being impressed, prepared to say he could see four fingers and five at the same time. Perhaps not the best literary allusion?

Lyn kept a diary for much of the 1960s and presumably recorded daily events as well as she was able to recall and analyse them at the time. I have to think she drew on these writings when she came to write 'Reflexion', so I doubt everything was invented. As to the spin she put on things, well, who doesn't?

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

From the blog-post that Matt posted
pertaining to Suzan LaBerge & Joe Dorgan about Dorgan being Satan Slave M/C member
👇
https://www.mansonblog.com/2012/09/thoughts-on-labiancas-and-motive-on.html?m=1#comment-form
please reference my tweet
👇
https://mobile.twitter.com/nitrini1950/status/1285243606547087363
that an old acquaintance of mine referred me to about a very possible photo of Joe Dorgan in a group photo.

In this blog-post
👇
https://www.mansonblog.com/2017/08/deconstructing-pete-porteous.html?m=1
in a comment of mine with this paragraph
👇
"Hello Mr. Stimson

Thought you'd be interested.
A few months ago I was talking with a person about the Charles Manson Case.
This person told they went horseback riding with some friends at Spahn Ranch when The Manson Family was there.
This person said that The Manson family Girls were kind, respectful, and couteous.......
Thought you might want to know."
👇
this person took a few camera photos at SPAHN RANCH. I have them. I may post them on my Twitter account. I'll decide.....

Also, I guarantee everyone that ALL Charles Manson Family Members are NOT telling EVERYTHING they know about certain situations that went on when they lived at SPAHN RANCH.

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case



Mario George Nitrini 111
---------
The OJ Simpson Case

beauders said...

Bartyk Frykowski was also stabbed to death.

grimtraveller said...

Proteus said...

I doubt everything was invented

I don't believe any of it was invented. The issue for me isn't whether or not some of the events she recalls happened or not {other sources corroborate the factuality of quite a number of things}, it's what she's saying about those incidents, her interpretation of them. That's what I meant when I said she takes a "certain Family line" ~ she was keen to try and paint the period in a way that was as far away from the way that LE has painted it since 1969 as possible. That might mean she's delusional, that might mean her pride just won't allow her to admit she may have been wrong or she might genuinely believe all she's written. To me, whichever scenario one chooses, that doesn't change what I think about the period because I can't come to any conclusions based only on a book by Lyn Fromme.

David said...

a jury (and as readers of posts, books etc. we are the 'jury') always has the right to disbelieve everything a witness says if they find the witness to be dishonest as to one thing

I get that and I can even go so far as to say that that may actually be quite an important way to go in some instances. After all, humans lie. Frequently. But as a principle of life, it's too absolute for me because life is full of nuance. Even criminal life.

Dan S said...

Whenever tex wants to fit into a new peer group bye goes that extra mile so I'm sure he's VERY xtian now

Mrs A said...

My condolences and I think this is just so tragic to bear for this family. May their memories be eternal. I think about how Roman lost his family in the Holocaust and then his wife and son to murder. Catherine Share lost her parents to the Holocaust and suicide. We do make choices but all so tragic. I lost my father not so young, but before most of my friends and then a nephew in a motorcycle accident. I just feel for anyone who experiences loss. My family has longevity, so it was hard. It’s painful and just feel for all the victims families who have to attend the parole hearings and relive these events but I do believe in forgiveness, but maybe not release. It’s hard.

Unknown said...

For all you softy liberals that feel sorry for Suzan LaBerge read this. There may be more to Suzan. Don't you find it VERY WIERD she 'befriended' Tex Watson in jail and was pushing for his parole? Parole for the person who slaughtered your parents. Hmmmmm. How does it go with children and the sins of the parents? Clearly Suzan has profoundly poor judgement (if not sins of pushing Tex to kill her parents) so you think she will raise her daughter properly? Suzan had her mother stabbed in the throat and elsewhere and now her daughter stabbed in the throat.

COME ON WHAT ARE THE ODDS????????

https://nypost.com/2012/02/26/flirt-with-danger/#ixzz1nTdxVU8v

Unknown said...

what's the line about children paying for the sins of the parents? Suzan 'befriended" Tex in prison and pushed for his parole. What child pushes for the parole of the killer of her parents? Then Suzan befriends Sharon Tate's sister, ok on the surface may not be odd but Suzan tells Tex Watson this? Suzan lived down the street from Tex? Suzan's mother and father stabbed in the throat (and elsewhere), Suzan's daughter is stabbed in the throat...

come on WHAT ARE THE F-ING ODDS???

read this:
https://nypost.com/2012/02/26/flirt-with-danger/

grimtraveller said...

Unknown said...

what's the line about children paying for the sins of the parents?

You're quoting those lines from Exodus out of context. Read and understand what is actually being said there. Those words were for a people whose pride and identity was in their ancestry and in the continuation and well being of their descendants but who were electing to follow God and be his people and trust him for the continuation and well being of their descendants. So it made sense for God to say to them that part of their punishment if they continued sinning would be Godly ramifications towards their descendants.
But that was temporary. If you knew the bible you quote from as well as you'd like the readers here to think you do, you'd know that in the book of Ezekiel {chapter 18 by the way}, God changes his mind and directly sets aside what he said some centuries earlier by stating categorically that children won't pay for the sins of their parents. The context and situation has changed and is no longer needed.
So that somewhat takes the floor out of your apartment.

Suzan 'befriended" Tex in prison and pushed for his parole. What child pushes for the parole of the killer of her parents?

One who has had a profound and real experience with Christ, been forgiven of their own sins and relies on God to be able to see beyond the relatively shallow set of ways of being that we tend to set up up for ourselves.
There are many things that set Christ apart from the average guru or philosopher, not least actually dying on behalf of those that basically had no regard or even acknowledgement of him. But that's deep. Especially when he demands of those that choose to follow God that they forgive routinely and love their enemies, rather like God does.

Then Suzan befriends Sharon Tate's sister, ok on the surface may not be odd but Suzan tells Tex Watson this? Suzan lived down the street from Tex? Suzan's mother and father stabbed in the throat (and elsewhere), Suzan's daughter is stabbed in the throat...
come on WHAT ARE THE F-ING ODDS???


And your point is ?
The odds on a person losing both their mum and their daughter to murder, some 50 years apart must be astronomical. And therefore, your point is ?

beauders said...

Bartyk Frykowski was also stabbed to death

But according to officials in Poland, it was a suicide.