Monday, November 9, 2020

Wont get Fooled Again


"Much of what they are hearing is emotionally driven, loaded words, thought stopping and thought terminating like clichés such as "Fake News", "Build the wall", and "Make America Great again".

              - Steve Hassan former Moonie from his book "The Cult of Trump"


"It is hard to befool a fool who has been fooled so many times"

               -Munia Khan


From Deadline:

The site of the infamous murder of  Leno and Rosemanry Labianca by the Charles Manson gang is back on the market. Zak Bagans, the star of  The Travel Channel's Ghost Adventures, bought the house last year when it was listed at 1.98 million. Bagan's reportedly bought the home for a film production. But while living there, he claims he decided the project should not move forward out of respect for the Labianca family. The two bedroom, two bath home is now listed for 2.2 million.


So did Zak have a legitimate change of heart? It doesn't seem that he made much of a profit on the sale so, I assume he wasn't in it for money in a real estate sense. I mean it was hardly a profitable "Flip". It just seems weird to me for a guy to all of a sudden develop morals after already going through all the work of getting the house in the first place. It also seems unlikely that  a guy who works on a show called "Ghost Adventures" got so easily spooked, and bailed for that reason. But, who knows... 

I wonder who buys it next? And, I wonder if someone buys it as an actual home or, if another person buys it for its notoriety? I really hope not. The thought that what happened there would make it an attractive place to live in for someone is a head scratcher. But you know me lol - Saint Sanctimonious right? Maybe I just don't get it in this case. Maybe it would be great to live there. Maybe I could gather with the neighbors out front every night at sunset with a 12 pack of Coors-light, and we could reminisce about the Murders. Get my dates in the mood on the couch when I tell them what happened to Leno "In this exact spot". Invite my Manson supporter friends over, and we call have beers in the kitchen and stare at the fridge. Even better, every year we can get together and, through role-play, reenact the actual crimes, videotape it and show it on the blog...

Nah lol. Not for me.  I just do not understand who could believe that buying this house because of what happened there is a good idea. Granted this guy says he bought it for a specific purpose, but I think there is a chance that maybe when he actually spent time inside, the reality of what had happened there finally sunk in. I know I would have a hard time falling asleep in that house. Just walking by that house was enough for me to satisfy my morbid curiosity, and to be honest, that sort of made me feel dirty too. (I have been to the Labianca house driveway with George Stimson, the live-in boyfriend of Sandra Good, and while there a guy was outside cutting the grass glancing over at me like I was some kind of fool.)

Others believe it is peachy keen to go there, and even further than that. And I am seeing more and more lately, that people who really wanna believe something is alright- are going to find some way or another- to believe it is alright. But I wonder sometimes if people really believe certain things, or if they are just allowing themselves to be fooled into believing something they want to believe? But, if the latter is the case, How long can one go on either fooling themselves or allowing themselves to be fooled in the name of self-interest? At what point do you get to a place where it becomes: Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice...


                             "This was the largest audience ever to witness an inauguration, period."

                                          - Sean Spicer (Press Secretary for President Trump in 2017)


Some people will SAY anything to suit there own purpose. I kinda always knew that. But what the last few years has taught me is that some people are willing to BELIEVE anything to suit their own purposes as well. And that is starting to get scary. I mean, you really don't have to work very hard to fool people who want to be fooled. But how often can you let yourself get fooled before you become... well, a fool? 


Sandy and Squeaky used to really perplex me. To listen to the things they spew, one has to suspend reality to believe that even they understand half of what comes out of their mouths. How could they keep repeating the same old tired lines (Lies?) that Charlie told them when they were naïve, young, and wasted? Didn't they see how they looked and sounded to the rest of us, I used to wonder? I kept asking myself how they became so brain washed in such a short amount of time? But then Donald Trump came along, and I saw grown adults who were not young, wasted, or naïve start to steadily repeat some really ridiculous lines (Lies?) after hearing the President create those lines (Lies?). And Trump was able to cultivate that in just as short a time. 


I really am shocked almost as much by how far the Trumpeteers will go to support Donald, as I am by anything the Manson followers have said in agreement with Charlie. When our President says its o.k. for him to grab a woman by the P.... and then I see a woman wearing a shirt that says, yes he sure can-  Well, I start to become intrigued with the phenomena a little more.


As I started to think about this, I realized that there are some fair comparisons between the leadership styles of both Charles Manson and the  President of the United States. What are the qualities that draw their supporters to them?  Lets take a quick look at just a few:

Charlie preached that Blackie was going to go into the rich cities and terrorize everyone when H/S started, and Trump promises if Biden wins that the Democrats will build affordable housing in the suburbs and it will destroy them. In other words, black people will come into your community and ruin it, along with your property value. In both cases they are using fear to drive home their points. Specifically- fear of the black man. Trump stokes fear and tells the "Proud Boys" to "stand by" for the impending battle. Charlie taught his people to prepare for the impending war. Everyone said that fear was a major factor in Charlies manipulation and Historians will write the same of Trump.

Charlie preached that he was the only one who could find the black hole to salvation, and of course Trump and Trump alone can fix it. Without him, the suburbs will burn- our economy will fail, the Mexicans will come over and rape and kill us, China will take over, our military will deplete, In other words, without him to guide us to safety- we are headed for his version of the end of life as we know it, just as Charlie has his people believing he was the only one who could deliver them to salvation.

Both have a lust for young girls. Charlie asked several of the girls if they ever had sex with their own fathers, and Trump has said that if Ivanka was not his daughter- they would probably be dating. Charlie was not beyond raping and sexually assaulting girls who he felt entitled to, and Trump has about 17 woman currently accusing him of the same. 

Both demand complete loyalty from their followers and dissent, of any kind, is not tolerated. Charlie chased off, or worse- anyone who did not go along with the program, and others just ran out of fear. Trump of course, fires his own administration and appointees at a rate we have never seen, and that's never enough. He also wants most of them arrested, or broken financially. Unless, as with the Family, they were one of the smart ones who fled immediately when they saw what was going on. Both Charlie and Trump had people bail on them when they understood who the person giving the orders REALLY was.

Charlie and The Donald both love to be the center of attention. Charlie would sit at head of table at meals, or on the rock behind the ranch and hold court with his people gathered around. Trumps favorite activity in the entire world are his rally's where he can preach to his believer's and bask in there adulation. If you fell asleep or disrespected a Charlie rap- you could get a shot in the head. If you do that to Trump- he orders the crowd to do it for him, and he will pay the legal bills.

Both displayed blatant racist characteristics that may have stemmed from pops. I have read Charlies racism may have been rooted in issues he had from potentially having had a black father. Maybe- maybe not. Donald Trump's father was once arrested while participating at a KKK event in New York. Perhaps Donny was raised that way. Perhaps not, But, whatever the reason, both have shown in actions and words that they had less respect for people of certain persuasions.

Charlie had his trusted Family lieutenants in Bruce and Tex. Trump always keeps a couple of people close who do his dirty work like Rudi, and Michael Cohen, and  his own Family lieutenants Jared and Donald Jr.  They both even had similar Family idiots in Eric and Clem. 

Ultimately, neither really cared about their followers very much for all the loyalty they were given. Trump has told people the only good thing about the virus is that he doesn't have to shake the hands of the people who are risking their lives to see him. Charlie was totally willing to let the others take the fall when it came time for the trial. They both can turn on the charm in private moments, but also both always put there own interests above those of the group whenever choices were presented.

Look, maybe you think comparing Charles Manson and Donald Trump is not fair. (To which one I wonder?) But in my opinion comparing their supporters obsession is...


"He never represented himself as Jesus Christ, he just represented himself as a Christ-like person to me"

      -Susan Atkins

"Mr. President. I know there are people who say that you say you are the chosen one. If you are a believing Christian, you understand Gods plan for the people who rule and judge over us on this planet in our government."

     - Former Energy Secretary Rick Perry


The lesson I am learning these last few years is not that Trump and Charlie said and did what they did. I know a con-man when I see or hear one.  It is that their people believe so fervently in it. People will fight for it. Die for it in some cases. They are not only unwilling to objectively listen and evaluate what comes out of the mouths of Charlie and Trump-  they accept it without question and repeat it tirelessly, and then adopt the lines (Lies?) as their own. That part, I still don't get. Charlie had people who would die for his beliefs (did Charlie really even believe them?) and murder at his command. Is Trump not having the same influence when he tells people in the age of Corona not to wear masks and practice safe social distancing? Telling people the virus is going away, and no big deal? How many people risk the lives of themselves and their families to prove to Trump how tough they are by rebelling against the science? (We know Trump doesn't believe the virus is no big deal- he told Bob Woodward he knew it was)  In both of these cases there is a very good that chance their supporters put the their lives and reputations on the line, and gave up there individuality, for a set of beliefs that were dictated to them by two men who really didn't have any real personal convictions to those beliefs themselves. They were literally just a set of stories they told which served their purposes at that specific time. Helter Skelter was a beneficial bullshit story for Charlie at that time. It served its purpose for him. It got everyone on his page. Covid being gone is good for Trump, The economy can't break records if people are getting sick, so people just aren't getting sick. That is all you need to know. End of story.

In both cases- No analytical thought or questions asked, No real, honest answers needed. Nothing complicated or sophisticated to sort through here folks lol. Both of these guys just say or do what is good for them at the moment, and they both found a group of people who accept it, repeat it, and fight for it like life depends on it. It leaves me asking myself over and over: Are these people all being unwillingly fooled? Or, is there just something inside some people that drives them to be around people Like Charlie and Trump regardless of what they know is the truth. So it becomes, for all intents and purposes, If Charlie or Trump said it- it is the truth. Period.  Just like Sean Spicer said.

Obvious contradictions be damned, Facts be damned, right and wrong be damned. Alternate realities. Alternate truths. No sense makes sense. 

Sigh, It all just sounds so very foolish to me....


-Your Favorite Saint





88 comments:

brownrice said...

Great post, St. Well said.

Matthew said...

That was very insightful. Strange because I was talking about this same thing with friends this weekend. Also comparing tRump to Hitler. To teach that outsiders are bad. To have an inferior race as an enemy. To have believers believe anything you say even though there is proof that it is not true. Pretty scary stuff.

Chrisonthecape said...

Take your naked communism and shove it. I guess you are ok with rigging elections to the point of Saddam Hussein territory. Too bad the communist party couldn't add correctly in those states - (Ga, Mi, Wi, Az, and NV) too many votes not enough voters. We'll see what the courts have to say.

Speculator said...

I think it’s a bad idea bringing politics onto here - especially something so partisan - guaranteed to cause conflict. Comparing Trump to Manson/Hitler is lunacy - but
I respect your right to an opinion. One thing is for sure, Trump has no blood on his hands of soldiers brought home in body bags from wars - unlike his predecessors. You could argue that he has covid deaths on his hands but history will decide on that one when hopefully covid is finally brought under control. All politicians are conmen - the roles are interchangeable. The worse ones by far are the career politicians who either bleed the public purse dry for a living or do it for big bucks paybacks from their “backers”. Has Joe ever had a different job??!!

Robert C said...

Ditto great post, St.C -- very well done even though there are now those showing up on this thread who still can't handle the truth, spewing lies and pointing fingers elsewhere. Absolutely unbelievable.

Proteus said...

One of the things you would have learned at school, ChrisontheCape, is that if you're going to make an assertion, especially an improbable one, you need to provide some supporting evidence to persuade people to believe you. The onus is on you, not them. Almost everyone would want elections to be carried out fairly. Almost everyone would condemn mass corruption in the election process. But if you want people to believe this was the case, encourage them with evidence. To believe unquestionably without it demonstrates real ignorance.

Speculator said...

Sorry - didn’t intend to post this multiple times - that might be construed as post rigging ;-) !!

Speculator said...

Just for the record - I can definitely handle the truth. And If anyone alleges vote rigging they need to bring proof. It’s just a shame to let politics boil over onto here. I look forward to every new post on here in the hope of new information and new viewpoints. I can switch on the tv to hear about Trump or Biden.

Peter said...

I was just thinking the other day how nice this place was because there was no politics. The last place I would go for political insight would be here. And this post and the comments is why.

Peter said...

Unless you're arguing that Manson was a CIA operative, that he went back to the house, that the police had orders not to interfere with the family,that it was a drug burn, that it was an organized crime hit, that Hinman was a gay mesc dealer, that Bugs perjured himself .... in that case, it's all good here, NEN, no evidence necessary.

DebS said...

Speculator, I deleted the two comments that were the same as your first. no post rigging here! Multiple posts seem to happen when using a phone to comment.

It's tricky to post or comment on anything political. I think Saint did a pretty good job. Considering the memes and other things I've seen online comparing Trump and Manson this is pretty mild and it addresses the mind set of Manson's followers with something contemporary that, I think, many of us can relate to.

Peter said...

This post has so much dumb in it. St. Circumstance, now with 20% more dumb. You polluted an otherwise fairly intelligent blog with your political fart. Didnt you leave ? How can we miss you if you dont go away ?

Speculator said...

DebS - I can li with that. As I said above - all politicians are crooks to a greater or lesser extent! Election time is usually a case of which poison you think you can swallow the easiest ;-) !!!

Speculator said...

That should say live with that!!

Peter said...

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

Chrisonthecape said...

Proteus, the evidence is so prevalent that it is hard to ignore without a court hearing. The establishment wants a left wing government so they can easily manipulate the people. Trump stood in their way and had to be removed by any means necessary. How did pollsters miss 5 million new Trump voters? Most were black males and Hispanic voters. Are you telling me that someone like Biden was able to bring the most voters ever? Ridiculous. Why do anomalies seem to occur in largely Democrat urban areas? Seems like they kept counting until they had the right number, but as my original post states, they put more votes in than registered voters, that's a problem.

Rock N. Roll said...

Good read, thought provoking. For me the elephant in the discussion can sometimes be aspects of the horrible and disturbing treatment of women and people of color by the family. Talk about bring us to now.

Monica said...

I like how you presented this, Saint. Manson encouraged hate and chaos while claiming peace. Countries led this way don't usually fare too well either. The zombie follower analogy is interesting. While it is true that your post was slighty one sided (and I fully agree), zombie followers are on both sides of our politics these days. It is very disturbing.

Robert C said...

Monica -- agreed.

Chrisonthecape -- "He that speaks much, is much mistaken" (Ben Franklin 1706-1790)

StillGrooving said...

Just want Chrisonthecape to know that the total number of votes still only accounted for something like 61% of the registered voters in this country, so, no, there were not more votes than registered voters. Why did so many people vote in this election? Well, one huge reason is the virus. Most states allowed mail in, absentee ballots for all registered voters who wished to vote that way, to protect the right to vote in the middle of a pandemic. Scores of people voted who usually don't vote. It was more convenient for them. And another big reason was the overwhelming fear of what another 4 years of a Trump presidency would bring to the U.S.

While the Saint's post was political, it makes sense and I agree with what I read. Trump is a con man. That's how he works in the business world and that's how he worked as a candidate and president.

St. Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
St. Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Proteus said...

the evidence is so prevalent that it is hard to ignore

Is it? You still haven't given us any evidence. Where is it? Where are your primary sources? All you have posted are questions, hypotheses, non-attested statements ...

Hearsay, secondary sources and mindless repetition do not an argument make.

You learned all this in school (I hope).

Peter said...

It's rare to ever plead a fraud or conspiracy case based on direct evidence because in most instances - by its very nature - a fraud is concealed.

Flood the electorate with unsolicited ballots due to the “pandemic,” establish collection points where ballots are scooped up and monitored, count into the wee hours of the morning, suddenly “suspend” the tallies while figuring out how many votes are needed to erase Trump’s lead, and then declare Biden the winner.

Done and done.

Proteus said...

I don't know whether there was fraud or not. If there was, it should be rooted out and the results amended. That's work for lawyers.

But if there was/were shenanigans, you'd think there'd be some indication other than allegation and suspicion. So many cases are being thrown out for lack of evidence .... and nobody's questioning the senatorial votes, only the presidential ones, yet they were surely done together?

It's not unlike Manson research. That's why I admire researchers like Cats and Deb, because they understand the value of primary sources and don't float outlandish theories without supporting evidence.

But I'm used to being a voice in the wilderness. I'm neither a Republican or a Democrat, and respect them equally. Not too keen on incumbent 45 as a person, but we don't elect on personal qualities. Just asking for a bit of common sense and logic, is all.

Peter said...

It isn't going to be a video of people burning ballots. It's based on statistical probabilities. That IS evidence.

Proteus said...

Probabilities is evidence? Diós mío, ¿en que me he metido?

Put politely, we're not speaking the same language.

No offence, but I'm outta this thread.

Dan S said...

This one's for the Col: get your "their"s right!

I agree with you on the substance though. I can't believe trump ever got even 1 vote. What a charlatan! And i don't get why people think communism is such a dirty word. (Or, more to the point, why people love capitalism so much.) The rich getting richer and keeping us wage slaves in the rat race ain't so cool for my utopian vision.

Also, tex did it to impress his peer group, then Charlie had to show em how it's done after he got put on the spot.

Dan S said...

Peter: oh, snap!

Jenn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jenn said...

Chrisonthecape wrote: “the evidence is so prevalent that it is hard to ignore without a court hearing.”

Actually, it’s not. Each case is being summarily dismissed for a complete lack of evidence. Perhaps the evidence is hiding with “Hunter’s laptop”.

AustinAnn74 said...

I'm very sad to see politics being brought up here.....it inescapable....

Robert C said...

Although I'm not entirely sure of all the IQ's on this blog I think most understand St. C.'s post focuses on some of the analogies between Manson and Trump 'among other things' which really haven't been addressed yet much. Of course it's political in part but the main course of comparisons can be addressed if those who can handle the truth can concentrate on the purpose of the thread and not their agendas. For those who do not like nor feel politics should be on this blog, my apologies but also note you don't have to read anything that affronts your delicate sensitivities.

Speculator said...

I don’t think it’s so much an issue of anyone having delicate sensitivities or poor levels of IQ. More that this blog is usually a good place to come and get away from the day to day crap that hits us everywhere else including - none more so than at the current time - politics. And instead indulge in a particular interest in an infamous set of crimes and all that surrounds them without any other distraction.

Milly James said...

Folks - I'm from the UK. As it happens, we were talking about the Brown-shirts and the Reichstag etc before this post. I now understand that the US has two Presidents: One who's won the election and the other who will stay in the White House.

I've never had my IQ tested btw.

brownrice said...

Any objection to "politics" might be better phrased as an objection to "contemporary politics". You'd be hard-pressed to find a case that was as riddled with politics as this one. The whole era it happened in was deeply divided politically and every aspect of the case (from the defendants lame attempt to use politics as a rationalisation for the crimes to Nixon sticking his ugly beak in) was influenced by the politics of the time. The so-called "culture wars" (that the rise of Trump is so much a part of) has its roots in the 60s. Every time one of the (now) geriatric "Family" comes up for parole, our politics are plainly on display in the various comments expressed here.. As AustinAnne74 very wisely says, It's inescapable. At the same time, it IS refreshing that most of us can usually set our political differences aside to examine this case.

Chrisonthecape said...

Jenn you are wrong, first recounts then challenges in court. Try to keep up.

Doc Sierra said...

Pretty sad when you're tired of politics, come on mansonblog.com, and find politics.

Dan S said...

How about the comparison of Manson and his contemporary Calley?

grimtraveller said...

brownrice said...

Any objection to "politics" might be better phrased as an objection to "contemporary politics". You'd be hard-pressed to find a case that was as riddled with politics as this one. The whole era it happened in was deeply divided politically and every aspect of the case (from the defendants lame attempt to use politics as a rationalisation for the crimes to Nixon sticking his ugly beak in) was influenced by the politics of the time

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This.
It's like religion, drugs, music and law enforcement, among other things. So entwined and interspersed in all matters Manson/TLB/Family. There's not usually objections when there's a post connected to any of the other myriad of aspects that bleed through this case. And St's post does have some relevancy ~ a frequent question/objection is how people could have bought into something like HS or Mansonia in general or whether its architect truly believed in it and other associated matters and questions. So it is helpful to draw on contemporary parallels that show a similarity {they're not the same but they have similarities}. It just so happens with America's current prez that many of his supporters {incidentally, by no means all of them or maybe not even most of them} demonstrate a faith in him that makes other people marvel when they pose their objections.
The real question for me is whether we have the maturity, reasonability and basic human respect for one another to be able to hear one another, take on board opposing views to our own, consider them, acknowledge what is useful/good and then explain why we disagree on the things we do disagree about without matters descending into the sludge that I seem to be seeing pretty much everywhere else I look, be it music sites, film sites, the TV news, satirical comedy shows, various social media sites etc.

AustinAnn74 said...

After the last four years of constant, in-your-face fighting, you're not sick of it? I am!

AstroCreep said...

Like someone above mentioned, this place has been an escape from the onslaught of political ads and the politicization of everything. Whether we are left, right, center, blue, red, black, green... it doesn’t really matter and that’s why places like this blog are sacred to me. We all find this case interesting regardless of our political or religious affiliations.

And no, this case has ZERO to do with current US national politics, zero. Comparing a supporter of Trump/Bernie/Biden/Hillary/Reagan/Obama/Bush/Mondale or any presidential candidate to the likes of Scramblehead following Charlie is moronic at best.


grimtraveller said...

AstroCreep said...

And no, this case has ZERO to do with current US national politics, zero. Comparing a supporter of Trump/Bernie/Biden/Hillary/Reagan/Obama/Bush/Mondale or any presidential candidate to the likes of Scramblehead following Charlie is moronic at best

I beg to differ. There are comparisons that can be made between all kinds of people and situations from every part of the world and every era. It's not hard science as little can be proven, but hey, one could easily compare Bin Laden with a whole rafter of historical and current personages and one can easily do likewise with some of those so inspired.
Because when all is said and done we're human and we really don't change much from age to age when the chips are down.

AustinAnn74 said...

After the last four years of constant, in-your-face fighting, you're not sick of it? I am!

I agree with you. But unless one is going to withdraw from the world {and some do} it's hard to avoid and the more one gets to see and understand, then it becomes easier to make certain comparisons. In discussing them, one may change one's mind about the comparisons they've been making or may be further strengthened in what they see.

AstroCreep said...

And no, this case has ZERO to do with current US national politics, zero

See how difficult it is to escape the Manson Family ! ☺ 😀

Dan S said...

Trump fucked with underage girls and he's a complete charlatan liar. The comparisons with Charlie are clear. I can't believe he even got one vote. I voted for Bernie

Linsycar said...

Well I’m done reading this blog for a while. I supported Trump because I’m a republican and I would vote for an orangutan any day than to vote for a party that upholds abortions. My IQ is fine and my morals are intact. Trump did not introduce covid into the world. This election will probably be won by the Democrats. Ok. Let’s see what they can do better. If Trump had won, every major city in the U.S would have seen fire, looting and rioting. People have been through enough ugliness. It just sucks that I open your blog and feel insulted. American blood has been spilt to preserve my rights to vote the way I see fit.

St. Circumstance said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jenn said...

This is my last bit of politics, I promise. I just can’t let this go unanswered.

Chrisonthecape wrote: “ Jenn you are wrong, first recounts then challenges in court. Try to keep up.”

Oh, I keep up; believe me. There will be one, maybe two recounts due to the closeness of the race in individual states, i.e. Georgia. It won’t change anything. Recounts almost never change a race that is standing at thousands of votes in spread. In fact, I don’t think that it ever has. As to court challenges, the lawsuits are winding through the courts. They literally being laughed out of court. Why? Total lack of evidence. The Trump people are even starting to drop their own cases now. Biden won. Get over it.

Robert C said...

Linsycar said: *** I supported Trump because I’m a republican ... ***

Excellent reason.

*** ...than to vote for a party that upholds abortions. ***

Do they all ?

*** My IQ is fine and my morals are intact.***

According to YOU.

*** Trump did not introduce covid into the world. ***

No one ever said he did. They did complain about how he handle Covid once he learned about it. See the part about your IQ.


*** This election will probably be won by the Democrats. ***

They already have even though your commander and fuhrer have refused to concede.

*** Let’s see what they can do better. ***

Extremely high probability they'll get a lot of blockage from the RNP and the usual suspects.

*** If Trump had won, every major city in the U.S would have seen fire, looting and rioting. ***

Purely speculation -- again an IQ issue. The rioters have no connection to the democrats.

*** People have been through enough ugliness. ***

Every national election is ugly.

*** It just sucks that I open your blog and feel insulted. ***

About wha ?

*** American blood has been spilt to preserve my rights to vote the way I see fit. ***

No one ever contested that (IQ ?). But they didn't sacrifice so you can have your way all the time. There's a difference.

And for the record, no, I'm neither a democrat nor republican.

Matt said...

Blogger Linsycar said...
Well I’m done reading this blog for a while.


bye...


steve said...

Biden = Old Man Spahn who has no fucking idea what's going on.

Speculator said...

That one did make me chuckle!! Although it’s maybe a bit too flattering to Biden :-) !!!

H. Allegra Lansing said...

"I was like everyone else - enslaved to the point I couldn’t put two sentences together. The thing you have to remember about Charlie is that he was a con. Kids don’t know about cons. They don’t know about people who’ve been in prison. People in prison live by their wits. Otherwise they don’t survive. Charlie came out of prison with that skill. He knew what you were thinking before you did.” (Catherine Share quoted in “Manson: An Oral History” by Steve Oney ©July 2009 Los Angeles magazine) - great post!

grimtraveller said...

Linsycar said...

Well I’m done reading this blog for a while

Why, because one contributor saw certain parallels between the actions of some members of a current group and another set that were around 50 years ago ?
I've seen parallels between the Family and people I love over the years.

I would vote for an orangutan any day than to vote for a party that upholds abortions

I noticed that among many Christian voters, the standard by which the Democrats were cast into the role of Satan was the stance on abortion. But I find that naive. Both parties quite simply are a conglomerate and within the conglomerate are a series of things that one can object to as ungodly. No political party on earth that seeks to represent human beings can honestly do so entirely biblically.
There are orangutans on every side of the political fence.

It just sucks that I open your blog and feel insulted

I'm interested that you feel insulted as though the post was about you. Some less charitable than I would ask if it perhaps was hitting a little close to home.
Recognize this; out of the many millions of people that voted for the Republican party this time around, there's no way you all think the same, see the same and act the same. Even among supporters of Donald Trump. The same is true of those in BLM, the same was true of the Black Panthers, the same is true of so many groups.
It was even true of the Family, after a fashion.

American blood has been spilt to preserve my rights to vote the way I see fit

Of course. And that of course works for every other citizen of the USA. I could be churlish and go into detail about how that wasn't true for Black people for a very long time.....but that would be churlish among friends.
If you genuinely respect the blood spilt that preserves your rights for you to vote the way you see fit, then you should be rejoicing that others recognize that they have the same freedom and that they exercise it by disagreeing with you.

grimtraveller said...

One thing that struck me as, well, fascinating, was when the president, a few months ago, started laying the foundations for some muckin' abaaahhht by going on about voter/ballot fraud. And bingo, as he loses, even before he'd lost, as his opponent looked like he might be doing well, he was going on about it. A few months ago, I remember thinking, "ah, he's doing a bit of sowing, sowing doubt, sowing contention." And so it happens.
Charlie did something similar in a manner of speaking but on a somewhat different wise. 6 months before the TLB murders, he was telling people that there would be killings, even with descriptions of how people would be cut up and having "pigs" written on their walls.
And it happened.
I don't think either man is or was a prophet or someone capable of seeing the future in detail......

grimtraveller said...

Robert C said...

Every national election is ugly

So true. And not only in America. I've lived through 10 here in the UK as an adult and not one of them has been pretty. They tend to be vile. Same in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Most referendums are similar. The only one that didn't get fractious was the one around 2011 on changing the voting system and in truth, only one party really cared because they were the only one that had something to gain by it. The population barely gave a hoot. Things only seem like they're getting worse because when we move away from events, they simply don't carry the impact of something happening right now.
I'm thankful for TV broadcasters that have tons of film to show us that things haven't changed much when it comes to elections.
And this is before we even get to some countries in Africa and Asia where people lose their lives because of elections !
And we won't even bother to speak of China, Russia or North Korea or places like Belarus.
That's why Charles Manson didn't run a democracy !!

ardonne said...

Biden is like Mr. Spahn in several ways if you think about it.

Milly James said...

It puzzles me that 'abortion' has been brought into this discussion. Bizarre comparisons.

Matt said...

Both of these guys just say or do what is good for them at the moment, and they both found a group of people who accept it, repeat it, and fight for it like life depends on it. It leaves me asking myself over and over: Are these people all being unwillingly fooled? Or, is there just something inside some people that drives them to be around people Like Charlie and Trump regardless of what they know is the truth. So it becomes, for all intents and purposes, If Charlie or Trump said it- it is the truth. Period. Just like Sean Spicer said.

Saint, the worst part is that Trump seems to be willing to torch American democracy to salve his wounded ego and 71M people are blind to it.


Robert C said...

Well put, Matt.

Speculator said...

Trump is following a legal process that is allowed under statute. He’s not doing anything illegal - yet - unless you know otherwise. There’s a point of view that says he is acting unethically and unconventionally but sure not illegally. As I say, yet. And the yet part remains to be seen!

Speculator said...

And on the point of Trump torching American democracy - when Democrat allies of Biden are openly tweeting about compiling lists of names of anyone who has worked for/publicly supported Trump so that “this can never happen again” and they can never work again - and god knows what other sinister purposes. How does that fit into American democracy and how does it “heal the nation” I wonder. Do you wonder that too or would you be happier living in a one party state - as long as it’s Democrat. Sinners on both sides I would suggest.

Speculator said...

And on the point of Trump torching American democracy - when Democrat allies of Biden are openly tweeting about compiling lists of names of anyone who has worked for/publicly supported Trump so that “this can never happen again” and they can never work again - and god knows what other sinister purposes. How does that fit into American democracy and how does it “heal the nation” I wonder. Do you wonder that too or would you be happier living in a one party state - as long as it’s Democrat. Sinners on both sides I would suggest.

Nikki said...

Hi. I'm a long time lurker who's very much enjoyed this blog for several years now. I have always appreciated the inclusive vibe and respect of those who have different opinions about this fascinating case. I've never commented before now but I feel compelled to after reading this disappointing article. This country is already so divided and angry regarding politics,from both sides of the aisle, is it really necessary to bring that divisiveness to a TLB Manson blog? I'm very saddened and disappointed by this. People have differing opinions and beliefs, not everybody thinks the same, nor should they. I just had to comment and let it be known how sad I find this entire thing.

Dan S said...

Butt hurt nerds

TracyMack said...

Thank you, Saint, for the well-reasoned post. This "socialist" Canadian remains here for the comments.

SixtiesRockRules! said...

This blog has REALLY taken a dive in terms of truly significant and relevant posts. Very sad.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

Good evening St,

There was a song sung by a fella whose middle name is St.
How about that!
Oh, his full name (he left us to be with the Lord in 2010) is:
Chrispian St. Peters and the tune is 'The Pied Piper.'

The quote from Susan Atkins is a very important 'explainer' so to speak.
None of those from the Haight to Spahn thought that brother Charlie was Christ.
That he was a'guru' a wise man of the times, yeah.
A cult is not what I would refer to the gang livin' it up at 'hip club Spahn.'
The word gets to be used so often about just about any perceived anti-establishment group or movement, it ends up losing a serious meaning.
And, I don't think that David Koresh in Waco, Texas, whose congregation or whatever, as a group, was a cult and they should not have been slaughtered by the feds.
I know, I'm a bit off the main topic/topics but I am simply using that group as an example.

Susan ( "like wow..." and "that blows my mind" and "I'll do whatever you want...") Atkins, strolled around Haight-Ashbury in '67 and, talk about an open mind, as so many young people were there, saw and heard more than several 'sage' 'guru' sounding guys talking away on the streets and in Golden Gate Park.
Well, in '68 and then, in '69, I saw a coupla fellas talking 'wisdom' and "like man...he knows where it's at..." reactions from young hip kids. That was in L.A., including in Venice beach and all the way to Taos and Colorado.
I didn't think they were so wise, though a few were sincerely into 'peace,' non-violence and so on.
And, like Sandy Blue and Lynette Red, some were into the environment.

'Come on babe follow me and I'll show you where it's at...' 'I'm the Pied Piper...'
The Pied Piper-Chrispian St. Peters-1966 A very good musician/singer
Meanwhile, back in prison, brother Charlie said, 'I don't feel good."
Then he died.
He made a mistake: he should have written a book himself, about himself and that would have given him a better defense and more understanding about his position.
Same thing for Lynette and Sandy: write about the whole thing, including the month of August, 1969. You weren't involved in those crimes, so write and come clean.
Come on babes, can't you see...follow me and I'm showing you where it's at, come on babes...

Doug said...

Feel the burn ;-)

grimtraveller said...

Nikki said...

I have always appreciated the inclusive vibe and respect of those who have different opinions about this fascinating case

And politics has sometimes been part of that. Robert Hendrickson when he was around spoke so much about LBJ, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Dreath sometimes shared about growing up in a home that had one Republican parent and one Democrat parent. Brownrice has often brought politics into the debate. Manson Mythos often brought politics into matters. George Stimson had some political moments. When Leslie has been granted parole, in recent times, then had it overturned by various guv'nors, has there not been much said about the politics of the matter and notions of LVH being a political prisoner ?
If one looks hard enough at this site, politics has not been an alien presence. It is the different perspectives of people that help keep the blog interesting. We all come from different places and those places bleed into our common interest in the case.

Dan S said...

Fayez: koresh was definitely a cult leader with a cult that he boned all the women and was their perceived messiah

grimtraveller said...

SixtiesRockRules! said:

This blog has REALLY taken a dive in terms of truly significant and relevant posts. Very sad

Towards the end of "Helter Skelter" Vincent Bugliosi does this interesting blurb on how Charlie gained power over the Family members and how he maintained it. In that section, he outlines how Charlie used various means such as drugs, isolation, music, sex etc and how these all combined to make the cocktail that we are still discussing 50+ years later. One of the elements was religion. Bugliosi pointed out that not only was there "support" {ie, Charlie's version of support} for Charlie's spiel in the bible, but that his period in the spotlight could parallel that of Christ's in the new testament and he talks about the disciples, the trial, "crucifixion" etc.
Now obviously, it is not at all the same. But one can make parallels, as one can make parallels with just about anything if one is prepared to actually look and not jump to personal conclusions {unless and until such conclusions are warranted}.
At the weekend just gone, loads of supporters of the president marched on Washington to protest about the elections and the apparent result that they deem to be rigged. Even the most ardent hater of the opposition would have a hard time genuinely and rationally concluding that every one of those protesters actually had actual, die hard, tangible evidence of the very thing thing they were marching in support of and protesting about.
Yet there they were. On whose information were they acting ?
Few things could be more relevant to a blog about Charles Manson and the Family than the notion of belief. Belief and where it can lead. Belief and the one that is believed in.
That is really what St in his post is getting at. He could have talked about the supporters of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe back in the day. He could have talked about North Koreans today. He could even have talked about, I don't know, lovers of John Lennon that choose to overlook so much of what he said and did in a way they would not if it had been applied to them in their own lives. He could have referred to BLM or a hundred other things.
But he went topical with something that is happening now that is relevant to probably most of the readers of the blog. I get it that there is a semblance of politics overload. I get it that people feel very strongly one way or the other about Donald, America, governorship, elections etc. But I honestly feel that aside from St's personal take, there's something to be gleaned from the core point of his post. If you don't see it, try to see it or choose to see it, cool. But bear in mind that some can see the point ~ and agree with it, at least in part.

Lynn said...

Haven't been around in a while. I personally found this post to be well thought out. It's also the personal beliefs of the writer, in this case St. If nothing else, it stirred up an emotion and started a discussion. We'll never all agree on something, but we should be able to appreciate somebody else's perspective. If you don't like it, you can always scroll by. It's not that difficult.

Dan S said...

Playing a bit of the troll here (also very well said, Grimbo), Saint's very good point is that they're both charlatans who've bamboozled a bunch of idiots

Ajerseydevil said...

Another Obama for the next four years any of you who actually think this country's going to get better are fkn delusional
I haven't been spending much time on this blog the last year or so & this bullshit here sure won't change my interest in it any

ardonne said...

I respect everybody’s right to express their opinion about the election and the direction of America. But know that there are people that don’t agree with Saint and Matt’s opinions. We are not fascists and our thoughts are as just as valid as theirs.

ardonne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grimtraveller said...

Dan S said...

Saint's very good point is that they're both charlatans who've bamboozled a bunch of idiots

Not helping, Daniel !

Ajerseydevil said...

Another Obama for the next four years any of you who actually think this country's going to get better are fkn delusional

Of course, that point could also have been made had the result gone the other way. Politically, it will and can always be made of just about any election in the western world.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

There was a song sung by a fella whose middle name is St....Chrispian St. Peters and the tune is 'The Pied Piper.'

Before I'd heard his version, I used to hear the Bob & Marcia {of "Young, gifted & black" fame} version at weddings I went to in '71/'72. I always dug the song. I was actually a bit disappointed when I eventually heard Crispin's version but over the years it grew on me.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

Grim,

I checked out Bob and Marcia.
Didn't know about 'em.
I like 'em, they did a good job there and they're very lively.

A couple thoughts on St. Peter the Chrispin.
What I like in his version is how he starts and 'middles' the song, in sort of what I call in music: a singing/talking narrative.
Like John Lennon's middle in I Am The Walrus.
It is a bit foreboding of what's to come. as in, 'it's me...listen... l Know, I have the answers, so...follow me...'
Yet, no one has said anything about the words in the song.

There are lines that some of the girls and others from the Spahn Town of St. Susana
that said that brother Charlie said to them, and it was almost word for word.
See what dear sister Susan Sadie, (looking down at us I'm sure) said he said, to her over at the Haight, in 1967 when they met. Seriously almost or word for word.
I think that ole Charlie took from songs of '66 and '67 before the bull of those three silly noise songs in the so-called 'White Album.' Which actually was not titled that. It was 'Beatles.' Whatever

Welder Geoff said...

I thought this forum was about Manson and his followers not politics. Can we please keep it Manson family only please.

grimtraveller said...

Fayez Abedaziz said...

I checked out Bob and Marcia. Didn't know about 'em

Marcia Griffiths {she's the Marcia !} was in Bob Marley and the Wailers. She was part of the backing singers attached to the group called the I-threes.

I think that ole Charlie took from songs of '66 and '67

He certainly did with "Magical mystery Tour." One of the more recent debunking myths about Charlie {it has to be said, spun by his own mouth} is the one about him not being into the Beatles and being more into Bing Crosby. Why ? Because so many people from Greg Jacobson to Paul Watkins pegged him as being into the Beatles and of course, Pat leaving blood messages of words that appeared as main motifs in certain Beatle songs didn't help his plight. So of course, distancing himself from the Beatles was par for the course with Charlie.
Unfortunately for him, that infamous Rolling Stone interview from 1970 in which he offers an interpretation of every song on the White album forever sinks his ship and scatters his tundra. Plus of course his twice {at least} pointing at their songs to Vincent Bugliosi as being in part responsible for the murders and his frequent speaking of the Family's magical mystery tours. Dang, he even sings snatches of "Why don't we do it in the road ?" in one interview, not bad for a Bing Crosby fan, picking out such a rarity from the Beatles' catalogue....

before the bull of those three silly noise songs in the so-called 'White Album.' Which actually was not titled that. It was 'Beatles.'

I suspect the very reason it was called the White album is less to do with the cover being white and far more to do with it being actually titled "The Beatles" as previously, if the band name was in the album title, it was with other words like "Introducing" or "With the" or "Meet the" or "VI" or "For sale."
It was their 10th UK and 15th USA LP and the band were so universally known that there would always be total confusion between the name of the band and the name of the album. Imagine asking someone "Have you heard 'The Beatles' ?" meaning the album. They wouldn't know if you meant the album or the band. They may not even know that there was an album called "The Beatles" and would probably answer "yes" if they'd heard any songs by the band but not the actual album !
It's a similar thing with Led Zeppelin. Everyone calls their debut album "Led Zeppelin 1" even though it's just called "Led Zeppelin." But because there's a definite Led Zeppelin 2 and a Led Zeppelin 3, the debut has just passed into the collective consciousness as "Led Zeppelin 1." It gets even more bizarre with "Led Zeppelin 4" which is not called that at all even though the world knows it as that. It actually does not have a title. But it's not even called "Untitled"! It just literally has no name.
I've sometimes pointed out that Charles Manson was a very perceptive guy. He certainly sometimes was when it came to the Beatles. In some instances when it came to their songs, {for instance, with the song "Helter Skelter"} he was more perceptive than some of the actual Beatles themselves. And other times he was like many acid head Beatle fans. I don't know exactly when the album started to be collectively known as "The White album" {the band themselves referred to it as the double album ~ only latterly did they call it the White album} but Manson read some significance into the fact that the cover was white when really, all it signified was that the band were moving on from those colour extravaganza covers that characterized Pepper, Magical Mystery Tour and psychedelia. They weren't a band to stand still and repeat themselves.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

Grim,
You made good points, quite right and so it would appear then that there was more than the talk of what was in that double album.
As if the gang over at the Spahn Ranch and all of those teens in the U.S.
didn't hear the words from other Beatles Albums.
In 1967, as I was getting outta high school, there were kids I knew that, like so many, loved the Beatles and I ran into some years later.
Like others across the land, some did not like the Beatles songs after say, '66 cause they thought the Fab Four were into the radical way of living/expressing themselves and so on, not to mention acid and pot use by the shaggy four.
Obviously, there were what was, you know, nonsense words in some songs and the teens that were unhappy said that well, this is nuts.
But so were the times of, especially '65 to the early 70's. Some funny and some hypocrisy too. From rock/pop bands and so-called 'hip people.' The stories I could tell ya.
I saw some good and I saw some bad patterns happening, but that's for long reminiscences.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

Grim,
You made good points, quite right and so it would appear then that there was more than the talk of what was in that double album.
As if the gang over at the Spahn Ranch and all of those teens in the U.S.
didn't hear the words from other Beatles Albums.
In 1967, as I was getting outta high school, there were kids I knew that, like so many, loved the Beatles and I ran into some years later.
Like others across the land, some did not like the Beatles songs after say, '66 cause they thought the Fab Four were into the radical way of living/expressing themselves and so on, not to mention acid and pot use by the shaggy four.
Obviously, there were what was, you know, nonsense words in some songs and the teens that were unhappy said that well, this is nuts.
But so were the times of, especially '65 to the early 70's. Some funny and some hypocrisy too. From rock/pop bands and so-called 'hip people.' The stories I could tell ya.
I saw some good and I saw some bad patterns happening, but that's for long reminiscences.

Doug said...

Thankfully this all did not take place in the mid-late 70s and, the MF were not Peter Gabriel obsessives...we would be in big trouble...��

Welder Geoff said...

Well said.

JC said...

Your MAGA tears are deliciously entertaining.

Trump lost.

JC said...

I loved that Georgia had a recount. It was like getting to watch Trump lose the state twice!
The second time was as sweet as the first.

JC said...

Well, it IS your choice to be ANTI-CHOICE.
No one is stopping you.
Weird, huh?

JC said...

Nice reference there. I really did laugh out loud.