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Monday, March 15, 2021
Gary Parsons Discusses Manson Films
An interesting discussion of Manson related films with Gary Parsons of Thelema Films. They wander off to discuss why Manson was convicted when he didn't kill anyone... totally leaving out California's conspiracy laws and the fact that Manson did zero to improve himself while in prison to warrant parole. Other than that brief meander the podcast was informative. The interviewer is young so she offers a perspective of her generation's knowledge about the Manson saga. She's not as jaded as some of us old farts here at the blog. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.
Posted by DebS at 12:49:00 AM
Labels: Gary Parsons
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I'm offended by the lack of race and LGBTQ representation in films about the Manson Family.
Some of you guys seem to believe Manson was some undiscovered superstar before being "found" by Wilson or Melcher or Jakobsem, no...
.he was a lifetime loser who functioned as a child despite being mid 30s age, what happened TO him was wrong but I don't think he had what was necessary to be an average adult
Neil young, dennis wilson, mama's and the pappas would beg to differ. But I guess you know better than them.
I have ears and there isn't anything I've ever heard by Manaon that isn't total crap.
If you could tell me the difference between manson's music and frank zappa, I would love to hear it.
Some (I emphasize SOME) of manson's songs were pretty decent, but even if he had been able to secure a recording contract I'm virtually certain he never would have, in the long run, amounted to anything more than a one-album "cult" (no pun intended) artist. His inclination to criminality, combined with obvious psychological issues, would have ensured that his music career had an exceedingly short run. No way would this guy have had any Top 40 hit singles and it's also highly unlikely that he would have ever appeared on tv playing his music. If he hadn't been involved in any murders (and, sorry not sorry to the charlie apologists on this blog...he absolutely WAS deeply involved and probably to the extent of initiating at least some of them), the only people who would be interested in manson's music today are fans of obscure '60's artists and bands (fwiw I'm one of those fans).
@chrisonthecape....you're fucking kidding,right? You honestly think charles manson's musical abilities came anywhere NEAR frank zappa's? The difference is, frank zappa could and did write incredibly complex long-form orchestral pieces...and manson could barely strum a few chords. Ok, manson could come up with the occasional decent improvised folk song, but there's absolutely no way you can put him in the same league as zappa.
If you could tell me the difference between manson's music and frank zappa, I would love to hear it.
I shouldn't respond to this, but ...
Zappa wrote and produced 60-plus albums and conducted the London Symphony Orchestra playing his music. Charles Manson mastered half a dozen chords on the guitar and wrote a few catchy tunes. Zappa was a great intellect too - listen to him on YouTube speaking to the House of Representatives - whereas Manson was barely articulate or literate. Zappa, despite his appearance, was a family man - Manson screwed underage runaways.
Yes, I shouldn't have responded ...
Let me try to explain. Zappa's music is good. Manson's music sucks ass. If you want me to explain the difference between Manson and anybody else, let me know.
You are hearing professionally produced, recorded in a studio, music from Zappa, compared to tape recordings from manson. Listen to a produced gnr cover of "look at your game girl". Oh and don't forget "cease to exist" from the beach boys. I know, but his music sucked ass, right? Again, all of you know better than them. Ok, got it.
Your problem, Chris, is that of all the people you chose to compare Manson to you chose Zappa, one of the greatest composers and instrumentalists in the history of the rock industry. Manson was probably an average (read mediocre) folk singer who had an ear for a tune and probably performed better live than on record, but as for musical ability he is as far from Zappa as Venice Beach is from Mars.
Now there are are two professionally recorded albums of Manson's work out there, if we could get at them. One is in what is referred to as the 'Beach Boys vault', and contains a dozen or so tracks recorded by Brian and Denis in the BB's studio. They are said to be professionally finished and Manson is said to have been happy with them. The other, perhaps not so 'professional', is the one recorded by or for Hendrickson when he was filming at Spahn, the night Bruce appeared unexpectedly - also apparently locked up somewhere.
I don't really know why these haven't surfaced, as they might have made a little money among Manson fans. Or perhaps they really weren't very good?
"Greatest composer". Ok, let's get together and go ask 100 people to listen to Franks greatest hits, how many are going to side with you?
Well, if you go by 'greatest hits' then you clearly don't understand much about serious music. It's like looking for the greatest hits of John Cage or Karlheinz Stockhausen. You can list the greatest hits of Miley Cyrus or Justin Bieber easily enough, but it doesn't make them musicians. But I don't have the energy to defend Zappa - his music will do that, and in your case it would seem to be pearls before swine.
If you could tell me the difference between manson's music and frank zappa, I would love to hear it.
I think that it would be much harder to find similarities. Manson's music is more about the lyric than the music. If I were to compare Manson's style to other musicians it would be more Leonard Cohen, Phil Ochs or Pete Seeger. Or maybe even Johnny Cash. One of the last people I would compare the music styles would be Zappa. Frank Zappa mixed Rock with Jazz and Jazz Fusion. In so many of his works, the lyrics are incidental. In so many others, his lyrics are humorous whereas Manson's are more heavy and introspective. Just a very strange comparison to me.
chrisonthecape, comparing Manson and Zappa is ludicrous. You'd have a much better comparison between Bob Dylan and Manson. Both are in the folk/rock genre, both have mediocre singing voices, neither have great guitar skills and both have an attitude.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dylan and don't care much for Manson's music. Manson has a few songs I like, but Dylan has way more. Since we seem to have wandered to Manson's music and not a single Manson related movie has been mentioned in the comments lets go with it.
Why did Dylan become so successful and Manson didn't get anywhere with his music, aside from all the creepy murder shit?
Why did Dylan become so successful and Manson didn't get anywhere with his music, aside from all the creepy murder shit?
For the same reason he won the Nobel Prize .... he had a way with words, and was a seminal voice for his generation. And, DebS (no disrespect but) his finger picking guitar work on some of his more folky stuff was not bad at all. He can Travis-pick, flatpick and play slide with the best of them but rarely chose to do so. Check out his folk albums 'Good As I Been to You' and 'World Gone Wrong' to hear some spirited folk and blues guitar. As for his singing styles (and there were many), yes, an acquired taste but [to me at least] effective in his earlier work.
Manson, pace Neil Young, cannot be mentioned in the same breath.
Should have changed his name to Chas Kylan. Look at Your Game Girl. Number one single ... with a bullet.
And his dick is a monster
Oh the fun and lies babe could be from any place
with our cuties from Spahn and stupid nothing bum guys
we had movies and fun and money made and vicarious pleasures...
all the way to today...
isn't it fun know it all babes and geniuses' reading sites
and watching movies even 'farce upon a time in hollywood'
with people wearing clothes that were disco not 60's hip styles
and people liking extreme violence in it but oh condemn the gang from Spahn hills
you know some like cheap thrills on the screens weirdos in phony cultures in the cities-yeah, what?
did you know there's a courthouse over on Temple
there by the elevator and hallway walks someone
we all know
could that someone by Manson or Son of Man he said I am
or as a hundred people said son of a bitch whoa don't say that in the movies there's ladies around ha ha I even knew a few before the 80's started a sleazy America now
hey "what she say" ah lemme tell you
here come the ladies-they're all American girls and Susan liked to get down uh uh-
now lookout for skinny legs Leslie oh wait Sadie Susan had a skinny ass too before...
all that three male a day prison food ha second helpings land of plenty you know
what's the matter with you
now Charlie was sneakin' round the corners of Cielo and other yards
that got our boy heading to a seat in the courtroom
well it looks like our guy has gone and 'done did' somethings that ain't right with
talk and songs of love and all that- where would we be without pot and acid and easy whatever in '69
They all are, aren't they?
You know damn well they are: every movie, documentary and interview, all, are really
Not one was made without several lies and/or insinuations that were simply not true.
From the several minutes in the living room in Cielo to the contradictory portrayal of the initial entries into the Waverly one.
From when and where some of 'em met Charlie in the Haight area in S.F. to widely divergent opinions and statements of 'facts' when the lowlifes murdered Shea.
And there's more, you know, than these examples.
Wait, it occurred to me that, watching the three charming ladies, Susan, Leslie and Patricia and dashing brother Charlie that-they're natural actors! They really could have been in movies playing roles really well.
There is one interview that shows how someone could actually change with time and even some gained wisdom. That was Charlie with Diane Sawyer (listed as 1993).
It really appears that it was a "if I knew then what I know now..." type mentality with Charlie. But, it was too late. Still, Charlie could not completely tell of his
own planning and involvement in the August crimes, cause he 'ain't' gonna give up some/those things of himself. He didn't even come out and really or strongly condemn say, Leslie or Susan and some others as he was in prison all those years.
Look at that interview. If he had not committed those crimes and he mellowed in some ways, he coulda been playing guitar in some modest clubs and just living and we would never have heard of him or them.
But it's fun isn't it, it's been fun, hasn't it
I thought I re-read it, but still,
there was a word there, that should have been three 'meals' not male
in reference to sweet smile Susan enjoying the cuisine in prison,
courtesy of the good people of California.
Sorry for that misspelling and thank you for your indulgence.
This is yours truly trying to get around the five foot piles of snow as I try to get to a store and a coffee shop or two in beautiful downtown Boulder and in Denver.
It's really cold but I didn't wear a hat, cause I want the ladies to see my hair.
Can you relate?
Hear Zappa: Dog. Breath Variations. Genius.
When you said that there was no way he'd have " any Top 40 hit singles" my mind immediately envisioned an American Bandstand "Hit or Miss" segment with with two "Pepsident Smile" teens debating the merits of the song...HILARIOUS!
If a band as incredible as LOVE had to struggle to get on National TV and, National Radio...you're so right...
Manson would've been a tax write-off signing or, boutique/eccentric/hipster signing at best.
Imagine him on tour?!
His lifestyle was a pretty lazy one. The bands of that time were pushing out tours and albums at a blinding pace.
No chance...and, personslly, I do find a few of his songs intetesting.
What I really wanna see/hear is a video of Fayez a la Johnathan Richman...full on "Minstral Style" with acoustic guitar performing his lyrical comment/songs!
Forget Manson and Zappa!
Charlie when mentioning some of the famous musicians he met and claimed stole from him, always mentioned Frank Zappa who he absolutely hated and sworn up and down stole ideas from him.
There might not be a similarity between Charlie and Zappa, but...remember the group made music and Terry Melcher was more interested in releasing a record of the entire group which would be Charlie on guitar, Beausoleil on guitar, Watkins and Grogan all playing guitar, Gypsy on violin and several girls on vocals. If anything, Zappa might have stolen a few ideas from that. A large musical ensemble with himself at the center.
. If anything, Zappa might have stolen a few ideas from that. A large musical ensemble with himself at the center.
Frank Zappa was doing the entire group with him in the center on his album Freak Out, which came out in 1966. Chuck was in prison. He also put out an album of orchestration in 1967 and one or two more before Charlie was released and a couple years before anyone recorded Charlie.
Now I know the 'D' stands for delusional ...
The group .... Gypsy on violin .... No drums, no bass, no rhythm section at all and no keyboards ... Charlie at the centre ... And Zappa stealing their ideas ...
And [as is D's emerging pattern] not a hint of supporting evidence anywhere.
I need a drink
Doug, how ya doin'
a scenario that had some people suddenly discover feet of fleet, ha after
a few minutes, as I sat at the piano and began ticklin' the keys, a fella that was a guitar
and piano player looked over as I was a minute or so into it, said, "ah, Fayez how long ya been playin' the piano, you play piano?"
I said, well, "actually I haven't, I just sit and...actually, no."
Can you dig the scene? There was laughter, laughter I tell you, what the hey?
Anyway, I wanna thank you for bringing up Jonathan Richman. I haven't listened to him before. He's really good. I knew of his name among many we run across when looking at 60's and 70's songs, but yesterday I listened and watched him in some concerts and I like him.
He has the sincerity of a Rod McKuen and the vitality of the late Marc Bolan.(T.Rex)
such as when Marc played 'Jeepster' in concert over in Britain all those years ago.
Obviously, Jonathan has not gotten wider attention but he has the talent that goes from rock to folk and sort of fun sing along-fun songs.
Yeah, and of course this would be a warning, but I plan on doing a video to promote some things I've written within the next several months. Don't know which sites will take it, but it's about the real 60's.
As far as the subject of this post, Manson movies and so on, I have things to say, but I'll take my leave now and will address that issue again soon.
Oh, by the way Doug, and who else may enjoy some music trivia, once in a while. Well,I am now visiting a friend, at her condo, which is three blocks from where a cheap hotel used to be, which was next to a club called the Exodus. Some folk, pop playing and people would go there in the 60's. It wasn't a 'hip' place, you had mostly people on their 20's-50's of age going there. Anyway, Bob Dylan, before he became famous, stayed at that hotel for a while.
One day, I was told by a worker from a bar Bob played at, which is still here,(The Satire Lounge) that they would let people like Dylan play in the small place and the Smothers Brothers were there playing before they too, became famous.
The old cheap hotel is gone and is now a parking lot. 19th and Lincoln street.
I'm looking at it now.
Glad to hear that you sought out some of Jonathan's solo/small volume shows and, recorded music.
I would recommend you check out his band from Boston circa 1969-1974 The Modern Lovers. They were s full volume rock band heavily influenced by The Velvet Underground and, featured future members of The Talking Heads, The Cars, Yhe Real Kids and, The Necessaries. Their album was recorded at least two times before a satisfactory finished product was released in 1976. By then, Johnathan had soured on "amplified rock combos" and, everyone else was gone
This album is a GAMECHANGER. Your take on Jonathan's array of styles/songs (Rod McKuen, T Rex) is not that far off...add the VU and, Do Wop and you've got his post-Modern Lovers trajectory pretty well.
Johnathan worked in stone masonry and tile cutting/laying when not doing music. He looks and sounds like a teenager...a geeky one at that...but...
One time I saw him by chance, while traveling, in Memphis. Some huge redneck guys were being jerks toward those wanting to enjoy the show by manhandling snd obstructing their view. Johnathan stopped the show and, out of nowhere, challenges the rednecks to a pushup contest. Mo word of a lie! They all start doing pushups as everyone is watching and as the beefcake idiots getpast 20, 25...they can't do anymore snd, eventually they're watching Jonathan continue to do 30, 40, 50...then, Jonathan looks at them and, ge switches to 1 handed pushups and, by the time he hits 40 (90+ already) the idiots look confused...
They walk out the door. Tails between their legs...defeated by the 140lb nerd msn-child.
After 30 more 2 handed on the other hand, he gets up, grabs a sip if water...towels off his palms and looks out at everyone snd says, "Ok...where were we?" And plays a tearjerker called "A Plea For Tenderness" folleed by a song called "Hey There Little Mosquito" and, we're back on track!
Anyone wanna compare Chuck Summers to Johnathan Richman?
I should prune my fat fingers...sorry anout typos
Manson was the only one of his group knowledgable enough to know that there was no point trying to 'better himself' in prison. Coz he knew he would never get out.
Manson lived his life to the max in prison, which is what all of the family should have done but they mistakenly thought, and still think that they can reach that dangling carrot.
I think after 50 years one is probably resigned to the fact and you do what you can to lead a productive life. Manson was the only one incapable of bettering himself.Which is pretty fucking sad and shows how worthless he was as a human being.that he thought he was living it up is testament to his stupidity. For all his self pity and righteousness, it shows he disnt care about anyone but himself.
I'm not Delusional, it's just that you don't know as much as you think you do.
It's an absolute fact they made music as a group and Dennis Wilson gave them the name, "The Family Jams" was eager to release not just a Manson solo record, but a record of them. That is what Melcher was really interested in and even wanted to make a documentary film to accompany the album. That was the real reason he had Mike Deasy record at the ranch, since he had a mobile recording studio and Melcher wanted to capture them in their natural environment. Though of course later he made it appear as if he "suggested" Deasy go there and tried to make it sound as if he was pushing him off on them due to his lack of interest. The record went as far as photos being taken for the sleeve.
...and Zappa and his wife were most certainly aware of them and saw them perform at his log Cabin in Topanga.
There are recordings of them playing as a group minus Charlie and Gypsy does indeed play Violin on it. Did the rock you clearly live under prevent you from hearing them?
They played camp fire type music. That doesn't, like a lot of music require bass, drums (which they did have) or keyboards. My god are you dumb.
Photos taken for the sleeve. Total investment $2 and 15 minutes.
It's an absolute fact they made music as a group and Dennis Wilson gave them the name, "The Family Jams" was eager to release not just a Manson solo record, but a record of them … Melcher wanted to capture them in their natural environment.
There are recordings of them playing as a group minus Charlie and Gypsy does indeed play Violin on it
Who are ‘they’ and ‘them’ in this assertion? Who was the group? A few girl singers, Clem, and Paul when he was around? Two guitarists? From what I've heard Gypsy plays violin on very few known tracks ….
..and Zappa and his wife were most certainly aware of them and saw them perform at his log Cabin in Topanga.
Maybe, I can’t say yea or nay, wasn’t there. But for an intellectual like Zappa, Manson seems unlikely company, and the quality and type of music Manson played seems unlikely to have impressed him.
A lot of confusion has been caused by Frank Longo who regularly used the name Zappa and was even arrested at Spahn under that name. But Gail Zappa (who, like husband Frank, never did drugs) spoke out very strongly against Manson and his people in the Laurel Canyon book and I think there was little love lost between them.
Which leads to the allegations of plagiarism. To say (as Manson does in his Rolling Stone interview) that Zappa stole Manson’s music is odd for many reasons, musical and practical. Musically, there really is no similarity – in 1966 Zappa was writing highly complex compositions invoking 20th-century classical modernism, African-American rhythm and blues and 1950s doo-wop. Charlie, in your words, was producing ‘camp fire type music’. (some quite pleasing). And practically, look at the June 27, 1966 release date of Freak Out! … Manson wasn’t released from prison on Terminal Island until March 1967.
Did the rock you clearly live under prevent you from hearing them?
My god are you dumb.
These comments do not improve your argument, and tell us more about you than the matters under discussion. But if that is your style ...
Manson isn't even in the same universe with zappa. The Dylan comparison is a little more interesting
For the record (pun intended) the album Lie: The Love and Terror Cult was produced by Phil Kaufman and mostly recorded at Gold Star Studios in Los Angeles on August 8, 1968, with some bits added later.
Manson is credited with lead vocals, rhythm guitar and ‘tympani’ (which I guess means percussion). Also mentioned for the recording session were Bobby Beausoleil (electric guitar), Clem (electric bass), Paul Watkins (French horn), Catherine Share (violin and backup vocals), Dianne Lake (recorder), Mary Brunner (flute, vocals on Track 4), Nancy Pitman (vocals on Track 6), Sandra Good and Lynette Fromme (mentioned by name only).
Yes, these guys came together on this occasion to record at Manson and Kaufman’s instigation, but to suggest they were a regular group is a step too far. And frankly the quality –both of the recording and the music itself– leaves a great deal to be desired. But horses for courses - listen for yourselves and see what you think.
And while you're at it, have a listen to untypical Zappa at approximately the same time and compare his style, virtuosity and sense of humour [on this album]. Link to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQjUw8evlFA.
If I've come across the informatiom below, I've forgotten and want to refresh my memory. Where did you get it?
$nip "Dennis Wilson gave them the name, "The Family Jams" was eager to release not just a Manson solo record, but a record of them. That is what Melcher was really interested in and even wanted to make a documentary film to accompany the album. That was the real reason he had Mike Deasy record at the ranch, since he had a mobile recording studio and Melcher wanted to capture them in their natural environment. Though of course later he made it appear as if he "suggested" Deasy go there and tried to make it sound as if he was pushing him off on them due to his lack of interest. The record went as far as photos being taken for the sleeve."
Again, Proteus talks untruth.
Lie wasn't produced by Kaufman. It was produced and Arranged by Gregg Jakobson. Kaufman only pressed and released the "lie" album. It was recorded at Gold Star but the overdubs were done elsewhere.
"Look at Your Game Girl and "Eyes of a Dreamer" from Lie were done in '67 at session arranged by Uni Records. Bobby plays on "Eyes of a Dreamer".
In 1969, all the recording Charlie did was with/for the trio of Wilson, Melcher and Jakobson.
It was in a music magazine that Wilson talks about The Family Jams. He was misquoted as calling them the Family "gems". But Charlie himself and others within the group have confirmed it.
This is my own fairly comprehensive list of Charlie's recording history. In between a lot of these later sessions, Charlie most certainly did recording at Brian Wilson's studio.
1967-1969 Manson Recording history. I make absolutely no claim it's 100% accurate and I'm open to any additional information to correct it.
* September 11th, 1967 - Goldstar Studios (full session released to the public in various forms. The ful session I believe is on "The Psychedelic Soul of Charles Manson". One track "Sick City" appeared on LIE). Previous thought to be recorded at Universal Studio. Probally because session was arranged by Gary Stromberg and most likely to be pitched to Uni Records.
* ? 1967 session for Uni Records in which "Look at Your Game Girl and "Eyes of a Dreamer" (lead guitar by Bobby Beausoleil) were recorded (less credible source said these were done at Brain Wilson's place, they were not. Both these tracks appear on the Silverhorn single and Lie LP. The ones on Lie were taken from the single, since the master tape was gone by then. Unsure if other tracks were done during this session)
* August 8th, 1968 - Gold Star Studios (overdubs done August 9th at another studio in Van Nuys. Not Sound City, since they didn't open till 1969. Most of or all of this session makes up the bulk of Lie. I believe Jakobson arranged this session)
All recording done in 1969 were done with the help of Dennis Wilson, Gregg Jakobson and Terry Melcher. It appears none were done with this trio in 1968, with the exception of Jakobson (at Gold Star). Which destroys a lot of key elements of the official narrative. All were done after the Beach Boys released "Never Learn Not to Love", which is odd since even Charlie hinted that hurt their friendship a little. I do not believe it did..until later.
* Jan/Feb 1969 - Sound City
* Jan or Feb 1969 (I think late Jan)
Brian Wilson's Home Studio (recorded by Dennis Wilson and Jakobson) I BELIEVE this is the session the Wrecking Crew did session work with at RCA shortly after using the master tape. Terry Melcher arranged that, but it's unknown if he ever did more with Charlie. 10 finished tracks. This is session I think is what would come the closest to a Manson solo record. Why did Manson do later recording? It's possible after the 20/20 album, things between Charlie did sour a little and Brother Records passed on this release). Jerry Cole said Melcher couldn't get a deal as the vocals were poor. But Wilson talked about Manson getting signed to Brother Recordings. Nick Grillo is the one who later called Desper to tell him Manson was going to record there later in 1969, so he had to have heard these tapes. Wrecking Crew session players said to have contributed were Hal Baine, Jerry Cole, Mike Deasy and Larry Knechtel)
* April - Sound City
* April or May 1969 - Wilder Brothers (arranged by Jakobson. Bobby Beausoleil was involved. Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher said to be present.)
* June 6th - Family recorded by Mike Deasy at Spahn Ranch. Arranged by Melcher . Deasy dropped acid, became convinced Charlie was The Devil and tried to stab him with a pitch fork. Somebody (maybe Bruce, Tex, Clem) beat him to a pulp.
* Summer 1969 - Brain Wilson's Home Studio (recorded by Stephen Desper only). Before or after the Crowe incident? I suspect before. Maybe mid-June. It wasn't long before the Tate-LaBianca murders. Desper claims it was just "weeks before". Apparently nobody got to actually hear them. They sat on a console and later Nick Grillo demanded they be put in a vault. I BELIEVE these tapes still exist. While the OTHER session done at Brain's home studio might have been destroyed.
In addition, the "Family Jams" music recorded while Charlie was still on trial were recorded, I believe by Robert Hendrickson and Lawrence Merrick. Called "the Desert music", most of these songs were written during the first trip to Death Valley and were more of a collaborative group effort.
Great post, D March I know there was a lot of going back and forth between the bunch there, Melcher claiming he didn't like anything sure kept Charlie around long enough, I believe Terry was interested enough to deal with Charlie, these producers don't hang around and go along with people they aren't interested in
Good post, D. Thanks for taking the effort.
You made a fool of him but those broken dreams have got to end (paraphrase of 'Evil Woman')
That would be what Robert Kasabian coulda said about his temporary wife, at the time. Ms. Drouin. That's her real name. Steal his and a friend 5 grand, what a sleazy bitch, don'y ya think? And all to give to nasty head Tex and grubby Charlie.
Linda was an accomplice to five murders, let's get that straight.
But, you may ask, what about Manson in film and movies and film?
Well, the impression in most films are that she is mostly...kinda...sorta, you know, innocent and why, even a good citizen! he he okey dokey
Charlie did commit murder. He and the others, there, next to the Ranch, murdered Shea.
Charlie and Bobby murdered Hinman. Charlie stabbed/cut, whatever you wanna use as to that attack and Hinman could have bled to death, he could have gotten infected and died, even from a heart attack. Charlie told low IQ Bobby to 'finish' Hinman 'off.'
On that phone call.
Both Charlie and Bobby B tried to act like they were tough guys that don't 'snitch' blah blah and didn't fully accuse the other of total responsibility, they were being clever. So what, they did what they did.
Brother (pass the cash, free meals and lays this way) Charlie was a mind games player. Yes, there were dozens like him hanging out and saying 'wise' and 'off the wall' words and phrases. I know, I was there. Most of 'em didn't know squat.
But we had minds, mostly teens, that were 'open books' going to California, Taos, and other 'commune draws' so to speak. But wait, it's not like these days teens and people that 'have the answers' are any smarter, aware or better. Actually, I'd rather be back there, in the 60's anyway.
On one hand, Charlie is portrayed as either just plain crazy and a cold blooded murderer, on the other, as a crazy guy who had his semi-cult family members go out and commtt murders. The second is closer, but as I said above, he and his 'winners' all, murdered Shea, who are we kidding.
Here is what, in terms of sociology and psychology, should apply, generally at least, to Charlie from the Haight and onto Spahn Ranch to and October of '69:
pissed off at the treatment in reformatory type prisons/institutions and as so many in society, a missing parent and guidance and some, which is true, hypocricy all over the place. And Charlie is thinking and saying:
Well, look you SOB's I'm screwing your daughters, I'm playing with your sons minds like playing a damn harp. Ha ha, middle and upper class families...take that.
Look at what Paul wrote in his book, which is quite self-serving and taking no responsibility. He says-
we did this and that at dinner, acid dropping, singing, sex time, etc. Charlie tells the gang there, most often demands, the truly gross things he had people do there.
He controlled and just used everyone.
The fact that some of the people there say, "he saved me..." or "he helped me belong... or "I now had a 'family' or a 'home.' You get the idea, you knew most of that anyway. But, to those that defend Charlie, how about this: does any of that justify the suffering and murders of the victims? Also, well, that's for next time, thanks
Stephen Desper is the key to the vault. He (likely) could produce those masters.
Also - there has always been speculation that Bobby was part of the ensemble of "Sunset Blvd freaks" recorded on The Mothers "The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet" which was released in mid-66.
With Bobby's connections to Arthur Lee/Love, Bobby Jameson (Gail Zappa's ex and, drug dealer/musician) and, Zappa himself...the Manson/Zappa (casual) relationship seems likely to be more feasible.
Also, The Grass Roots/Love rehearsed in Vito/Carl's space early on which gives even another connection as this would include noth the time of Bobby's brief involvement with Arthur et al but, also Vito/Carl were VERY integrated into both the Hollyweird and, Topanga scenes...especially as the "leaders of the freaks" so integral to the then-current scene.
Now ya’ll are touching on my world.
I just wanted to add a few notes to D.'s extensive Manson sessionography above. The Stromberg session was actually recorded November 9, not September 11. The mix-up here stems from the date being listed on a bootleg as 09.11.67 (Americans would read this as September 11, not November 9 as the European bootlegger intended.) I don't think Charlie was in Hollywood as early as September.
Lynne in her book has Charlie recording the Stromberg stuff at Universal, while Stromberg himself in a podcast interview says it was at Gold Star. You'd think as the producer of the sessions he would know, but I think Lynne's notes are based off of her diaries, while the producer is recalling events from 50 years ago, so who'd to say? I don't hear the tell-tale Gold Star echo sound on any of these recordings though.
Dianne Lake in her memoir recalls a session at Brian Wilson's home studio that went badly once a producer or studio type asked Manson to speed up one of his songs. No date given, of course, but she seems to place it during the time the family was staying at Dennis's pad, which would have been between May and August. Also, in his Inyo County interview, Brooks Poston references an album being recorded while he stayed over at Wilson's. Andrew Doe's excellent Beach Boys sessionography lists a couple of unknown Dennis sessions at the home studio on June 7 and June 26-- everything else the Beach Boys recorded in 1968 has since been released as an archive dump *except* for these two dates, which leads me to believe they are Manson or family related recordings.
Also, to Doug's point, Steve Desper is no longer affiliated with the Beach Boys; the guys currently in charge of the vault are Alan Boyd and Mark Linett. Unfortunately all signs point to anything Manson-related they've come across never seeing the light of day, as the Beach Boys hierarchy wants nothing to do with any Manson affiliation for obvious reasons.
I was gonna post a comment sometime this evening,
but I don't feel too hot.
I was a mile away, sirens were screaming left and right till a woman on a bike
screams and waves her arms around at a stop.
What? I said
"There at the store someones shooting...killing people."
Six were killed the radio said at the King Soopers down the road, over there. Boulder
I've been there, I gotta call someone to kinda vent, have a cup or a drink
I don't feel good at all
Go down there and tell us what people are seeing and hearing. Be an onsite reporter!
Tell me more about this archive dump of which you speak.
Wild Man Fischer.
I believe is a more relevant character from back then. From Wikipedia...
Born in Los Angeles, Fischer was repeatedly sent to mental institutions as a teenager, where he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. In 1968, he recorded a double album, An Evening with Wild Man Fischer, that was produced by Frank Zappa for the Bizarre label. At one point, Fischer was the opening act for the Byrds, Iron Butterfly, Solomon Burke, and Bo Diddley. His relationship with Zappa came to an abrupt end after Fischer threw a bottle that nearly hit Zappa's daughter Moon.
It is bizarre that this post verges to a discussion of Manson and Zappa, whose only similarity is a quasai hair style. Watch the new documentary on Zappa in his own words (Amazon Prime). Mesmerizing. Does mention Manson for a minute, Zappa is a world renowned composer and visual mmusician.
Manson is the homeless guy on the side of the road who wants to pick up your shy teenage friend. One is a musician. The other is a manipulator.
Or, The Legendary Stardust Cowboy.I saw both live in 1987. Both of them were eccentric as hell.
For some people there just never seems quite enough of ego tripping and money, you know, gold and dough.
See all those movies and documentaries and did you know,
some tried to get The Beatles permission to use, to play some of the songs and the Fab Four said no.
Piggies, Helter whatever, Piggies, Blackbird.
Not only boring but irritating songs, more album fillers.
What was that George and Paul said? Oh, yeah, lyrics about rich people being greedy and you know, upper class living. And the trite words in Blackbird, 'you can do it,'
get up. Yawn.
Then I laughed. I said, look at you Beatles and the very wealthy rock and pop stars bullpeddlers: You, with a mansion here, a Villa there and you all sang about being humble and what's more important than 'all you need is love.' Ha hey, how about-'all you need is cash!'
Going back in time
like with music, movies and the years of 67-69,
I sat in a grubby old house or five in places here and there
we smelled the mustiness and looked at the posters on the walls, even then I said, 'give me a break, the freakin' Mamas and Papas,' but kids believed in that 'were just down to earth,' that most bands were saying and I thought, 'what am I doing
in these houses, no one's going anywhere with these lifestyles and the bands don't know who you are and they don't care.
There's some more irony here when you think that both easy life Charlie and John Winston Lennon both said, about the 60's, that they, John and Charlie, to paraphrase them: 'we just went along with what was happening out there, we didn't start most of what you think we did, we were part of it all.'
Is it in all the movies, where Charlie is played by an actor, that he's always serious and yelling and slapping people around? I kinda forget or something like that. But what matters, after all, if one remains moral and knows that Spring and Summer are coming and that when you listen to music there's pleasure there, but remember, bands, singers, none of 'em ever thinks about you and me cause they never really did or do or now...care. What's on the concert stage and on our screens is really just a circus and a passing charade.
The September recordings were at Goldstar and on that date. I know because I've seen the actual tapes and accompanying documents with the tracks writing down along with date and studio name.
I can say for a fact that somebody connected to the Beach Boys is in possession of a tape that consists of just Charlie and Brian, not Dennis sitting at a keyboard together playing, singing and just talking.
@d....and how, exactly precisely, did you get to see these "actual tapes and accompanying documents with the tracks writing (sic) down along with date and studio name"? And how do you know about this alleged tape with charlie and brian (wilson)? Unless you can provide actual evidence to back up these assertions, please do the readers of this blog a favor and shut the fuck up.
Drug Burn Theory, the most plausible true motive of the Charles Manson case?
Discuss now here:
The session was the 11th and 12th btw..
@d....I checked that link you provided. Those alleged studio notes appear totally fake. These days, it's super easy to create authentic-looking documents, but a trained eye can still detect when something is phony. You'll have to come up with something WAY more persuasive than that if you hope to prove your case.
There is nothing mysterious about the motive here, especially when you look at the actions of other sociopath criminals...including leaders of some countries throughout history. They explpoit weaknesses of others to benefit their ego and blame the other guy/group for their failings. This motive is an ego trip. Think about the surge and killings at the capital recently. Extreme destructive behavior has become normalized. What continues to be a mystery to me is what is going on in heads of the people (the Family, for one example) who get caught up in the fervor.
@SixtiesRockRules! You really are an idiot. A "trained eye". You don't have a "trained eye" for anything. Obviously, since those are the actual notes from the session in the possession of the person who owns the mastertapes.
Yes, Monica. That was the motive. Charlie just had an ego trip and decided out of the blue to send them out to kill. Genius.
Your post is just a pretext to mention the capital though.
Nope. My post was a pretext on how dangerous it cam be to normalize extreme behavior.
@d....there's absolutely no way to prove, from the photo at that link you provided, that those are indeed "the actual notes from the session." Like I said before, faking documents these days is absurdly easy. Until and unless the owner of those supposedly genuine documents can verify that they are real, and I mean with convincing and irrefutable info, then I totally stand by my earlier comment(s).
Because somebody would totally fake them. What a moron. They are from the person who owns the mastertapes and remastered at least half the session for the Unplugged CD release.
Peter, all the Beach Boys' 1968 session outtakes* were released as digital downloads at the end of 2018 under the titles Wake the World and I Can Hear Music, available through Amazon and all the usual outlets.
* - apart from two mystery Dennis dates.
@d....the fact that you've taken that photograph of alleged "session notes" at face value, without one shred of proof to back up its authenticity, just shows how pitifully credulous you are. Let me guess...you also believe that santa claus and the easter bunny are real too, am I right? And how the fuck do you know for sure who actually took the photo of the notes? The only thing more pathetic than this obvious hoax is people such as yourself who believe it's authentic and try to make others believe the same thing.
Panamint Patty rocks!
Gram parsons is Eskimo bros with Charlie."our father who art in heaven, that's my good too ya know?"
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