Your Resource for the Tate-LaBianca (TLB) MurdersYesterday :: Today :: Tomorrow :: Where No Sense Makes Sense
Is the road through Goler Wash is the one where someone claimed Charlie flew the bus over an impasse?
wut, I have always understood that the bus came up the back way over Mengel pass?
Patty,You're probably right. Somewhere, possibly in a comment, I read about a claim that Charlie floated the bus across a bad stretch of road. It seems that Goler Wash is the most likely place and I've wanted to see the bad spots for some time. The video gave good clear footage and it's easy to believe that the bus couldn't get through that way. There was somewhere that the girls had to move rocks to make a path, maybe that was on another trip up Goler or possibly through Mengel Pass.Thanks for answering.Whut
I believe that I read in Ed Sanders book that Charlie drove the bus up Mengal Pass. Mengal Pass is the section we traveled when we left Barker Ranch in the video. If I remember right, Charlie burnt the brakes up on the way to Barker Ranch and the bus was basically undrivable afterwords. I am not sure if Golar Wash or Mental Pass was in worse shape when the family lived at Barker Ranch, but I can guarantee Golar Wash is in a lot better shape than Mengal pass is today.
vettboss,Thanks. If Mingle Pass was also in bad shape, that might have where somebody said Charlie levitated the bus. There have been so many books and comments over the years that I get them confused.
Around 4:28 into the link below https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b6jkgUVBuD4The narrator tells about an individual who burned Barker Ranch, to get rid of evil. I must be the last to hear. In the reply to Oldoldpilgrim more detail is given. Has anyone heard about an arrest?
whut, This site tells where the fire started and also saying that a charcoal grill was removed from the site. The ATF investigated the fire.https://sierrawave.net/atf-investigates-barker-fire/The National Park Service site says the fire was accidental. Barker is the last place featured on the site.https://www.nps.gov/deva/learn/historyculture/places.htmI can't find anything to support trailsoffroad .com claim.
Thank you Deb. I thought it might have been mentioned here and I'd forgotten.Whut
whut, you might enjoy this just published article written by a car guy who went up to Barker with his Dad.https://www.hotcars.com/mitsubishi-montero-manson-family-hideout-barker-ranch/
Thank you, Deb. The junkers that were on Spahn in 69 are collectors items today.
This was fun to watch, very well filmed and narrated, you know?Of course you do and you gotta think: was it really so long ago?Where did all those lives go?But you also know that there were thousands of others living 'rough and ready,' though...the difference was what had been done on a couple of evenings in some homes on that August month, which is a month that isn't as sunny as July. I know why.There, things went way out of line and ridiculously so and not everything has to rhyme hereand did you see the last scene in this video?The sunset there? Man, that looked so lonely, so alone and forlorn.How long could one live there? Maybe with gardens of food and flowers?Here's something else you could enjoy to know.Seeing the scenes there, I thought of Paul Watkins and his book. How he trekked and stumbled and so on, in carrying supplies to the ranch area there and that hardship. Talk about a cloudy mindset and funny needs, also in his head, of proving himself to Charlie and to the females, that sort of attitude/attitudes.Then,it got worse: I had other thoughts. Yeah, I know, your eye rolls and laughing.There some guys, came back from Vietnam that I knew and sat and talked with often, in the late 60's-mid-seventies in a a University and College and later I read some books about the fun that was had by all in beautiful, sunny, rainy Vietnam.Seeing the hills, the terrain and gullies, ravines and more in this fine video, I said, to myself: "self, that moving back and forth by silly, small mustached Paul was kinda like the guys in Vietnam experienced and talked/wrote about." They said things like, "we would go and 'hump' the hills, walk and fall and turn andcarry all the damned issue on our backs, the..." You get the idea. If you had to go to other towns and back to smoggy L.A. to get food and whatever, then what's up with living there, prospectively, full time?If you don't own or have a written lease that leaves you in charge of the two ranches/area. or at least to one. You gotta think that the gang wondered and worried, on those questions, I would gather. Dig? It's so lonely when you're in a dessert area or a mountain field when it's dusk, the sun going down. Especially if you're alone.Where did it all go wrong. So sad to know where it did and so, it all turned into some sad songs. All those sunny mornings, why ruin things, do they even know? Sung out of tune and it was another story. Did they have cold drinks at Barker it gets hot doesn't it? Did candy bars melt?
Well, I am sorry for having 'dessert' it should read 'desert'thank you. I think I better cut down on using 'dessert,' also in eating.How can you resist an occasional banana split?Or ice cream scoops with chocolate syrup. 'Ice Box' at Barker?In the old days that's what was referred to as a refrigerator.Those were the good old days.Like Barker Ranch, Paul and Sadie, those days are gone.
Deb was right. I did enjoy reading the article at the link repeated below. https://www.hotcars.com/mitsubishi-montero-manson-family-hideout-barker-ranch/I recommend it to anyone interested in 4 wheeling or the roads to Barker Ranch.
Yes, I watched it too. I got picked up hitch-hiking by a guy in 1987. "You wanna see the Great Salt Lake?" After that, he took me home to his wife and kids and after a very nice evening and a session in a borrowed sleeping bag, I was provided with breakfast and driven to the Greyhound station. We exchanged addresses, as you do. We've subsequently had several holidays together, out in the Utah Desert. He knows all manner of odd places and we've discovered several abandoned cabins out there. One even had rotting denim overalls hanging up inside. I must say, some of the routes we've taken have given me gritted teeth. He's an astonishing driver and can 'bounce' the wheels from rock to rock. He would definitely able to get to Barker's by either route. But, one place he won't go, is Death Valley. He had a very creepy experience there, when he was a bright young thing, driving on his own. Nothing tangible as far as I can gather. Just a right dose of the horrors.
What's a"session"? Perverted minds want to know
Fayez wants to know where it went wrong... Two coups (wildebush and yana $ windfalls) gets the fam used to $. Then there's no more $ so the pressure ramps up; then you get drug burns and stolen credit card arrests
Thanks for the ride.
Dan, how you.Well, that was a heck of a lot of money, wasn't it?And,Say live and Let Die.Ism't that right chaps, James, Bond, shaken Martini's guy Bond. ( I prefer shaking girls, if you know what I mean.)So that was what we got from easy life Charlie?In the end, 'live off the land,' and well...'let 'em die.'And, I'll set things up and they do die.Now, is that nice Charlie?The words 'smart' and 'clever' were no longer Charlie's mindset and attitude, beginning, generally, in the summer of the year of our Lord-1969.Charlie was now on the 'clever' non-smart road and that led to the violence. From slapping and beating a girl around to attacking a visitor or worker at Spahn.To the drug/money stealing from lotsapowhatever to Robert Kasabian's money to the ten grand from Juanita "get down here, boy" Wildskanch. I think I'll pass.Let's see, where's my calculator. The only reason I wasn't flunked in most high school courses was, "let him pass and be outta here, the sooner the better."Anyway, you know the facts under this sentence.$2,500 - Tex steals.Linda, the weirda (my word for female weirdos) - $5,000Juanita- $10,000$17,000 in a matter of a couple months?Say, 4-5 grand to old man Spahn.say, 4-5 grand for two dune buggies. If they actually paid for two, as they stole one, several former Spahn bum members of the 'family' later said.Money from Sandy Blue.Stolen credit cards used for this and that.Dumpster diving, at times.Even Susan Sadie dancing at a topless joint while Charlie drank milkshakes at the Munch Box across the way.Swivel hips Sugar Susan.Makes me wanna cry.So, just how smart were these raggedy guys, Charlie, Tex, Paul, Davis, nasty perv Clem Grogan, et.al.? This is simply to delve more into the summer of '69 as all the various facets of those events and characters were rising in strange whirlwinds of: this money, this newcomer, this murder then August 8, then Shea, then Barker/Meyerand...all of that money. Was there any way in which Charlie did not act irresponsibly?Not from July 1 and on.I know that you know the basic facts and they have been looked at and studied and so on on this site. Many of you longer than I have been reading the articles here.Still, that's what it's all about.Why did this or that occur? What were you thinking at the time, Spahn livers'?Years later you talked and were interviewed, but you polished the words and were playing to the media and want/wanted to soften your roles in what went on at Spahn and other places of, you know, say...crimes?Now, if I may, there is something that I can't get out of my head. Besides Susan Sadie.That is something I think that was implied, here and there, on various commentson this very site, that it was written about before.Be that as it may, I just can't understand/get over the buck knife in the sofa in the Tate house living room. The buck knife that Susan supposedly had and brought down, several times onto Voytek's leg, as he stood, turned and struggled toward the door. I just don't know. What? Let me, you know, know. And let you know, know what I'm saying? Or something
Regardless of all the altruistic bullshit they were always yapping about, they were all - first to last - selfish, self-centered, and callous people.
Dan S - I walked into something of an elephant trap there didn't I?
Selfish druggies.... Charlie would hit all the girls and it would weed out the ones who wouldn't put up with it. To milly :it's kinky his wife was there.The buck knife find in the sofa was lost before any leg stabbing. Sadie borrowed lady dangerous's mom's knife
Don't you know that many, oh yeah now, many I'm saying, that:believe everything they read or hear just about everything under the suneven though cupid lips Susan didn't kill anyoneI'n not saying that Susan didn't do any wrongyet I'm telling anyone that whether she was there or notthere was the same outcomeI'm saying people can just stop talking if all they say is she's just a killer because you knowthat wasn't true at allexcept at Hinman's house she let herself be an accomplice but as usual the cowardly murder was done by the junky people the guys usually she was withbut you forget Mary Bummer Brunnerlook into the window there the living room is that a sofashe's standing there barefoot and here we go againanother 'tough' guy with a gun in someone's homewhy aren't you there Charlie oh right all you gotta say is I wasn't therefunny even when hairdo lady Diane Sawyer and others asked about the Waverly one you always turned the questions around and wouldn't say well, what do you saybrother mandid you see how dusty and Wild Westy Barker looked in the video we just sawyou know there was a buggy there and Susan looked funny laying there looking at the camera always with long shiny hair like the ads then 'Beautuful Hair Breck' shampooheh that's sadie for youthey always wanted cute face brunette Susan to feel guilt and more guilt and remorse and to what the hell you sayself hate?screw thatwhy admit to something that you never did?how many times are we gonna interview Pat and Lesliehow many sad eyes and sorry's and another dozen apologies and okay I'll cry again and feel bad about myself in my cell tonightgo ahead write about it make another docubullshittery and interview another Shrinkoh wait, we have another space traveler and Napoleon over thereonly Susan committed crimes only Pat and Leslie everyone else in only California's prisons are cool their murders are you know not well, notorious and to us a holes in the media only something famous like, oh a showbiz or politician involved crime will get us to concentrate on... for a week or sowe're sensational and so we have Susan Atkins listed as an 'American Murderess.'No, you're wrong. Susan was not a murderous and so I'm telling you you better stopshe did her time and atone and she believed in Heaven above what do you saylook there she is in that whitish what's with the yellow oh it's a Ford from Detroit on the killing road then the street they stopped and Charlie looked through the window and Susan's eyes came down and she looked away Charlie said Leslie and Pat you go in the knives are still not numbered right on the Tate nightdid someone say 'here we go again' this is ridiculous Susan should have never sent half that time in prison look around the system is rotten and is not a justice scale fair it's not a democracy and it's not even a republic anymorewhat's the matter with them with corruption and in our face lying at least I know what's the matter with someone like me
Fayez has a very interesting writing style. I've read sone of his other comments, always fun and interesting to read. I find it fascinating that everyone has different takes on the case snd the Family, and some of us identify with or are more empathetic to certain victims, Family members etc. I know this is off topic, but has anyone here purchased the Manson File Definitive Edition off of Nicholas Schreck’s page? I saw he updated the page very recently saying that shipping would be happening soon since Germany’s lockdown is ending. It looks like something I would want, but the way the page is set up leaves me a little leery. Not a lot of info etc. if anyone has any thoughts on the book I would love to hear them. Apologies for the off topic question. Wasn’t sure where to post.
Just dropped by. Lots of new names here, no one I recognised except my old frenemy the Col.Regards from Patagonia, where snow is threatening.Salutes, love and potatoes.JemP
Jay,I'm not familiar with Schrek's page. If the following is what you're looking for:This limited English 2011 Apocalypse Edition of the new, expanded, and revised new, expanded, and revised ~The Manson File: Myth and Reality of an Outlaw Shaman."I found the above, by typing "Nikolas" into the search box on the left at the top of the post to which were responding.
Jay, thanks,'your check's in the mail.'Ha hey, that was one of the lines a comedian or singer would use when only one or two people applauded, laughed or clapped their hands, as it were, when she or he had just finished a joke or song. Just when you think you'd seen a hundred videos on our friends from Spahn days and nights, there seems to be yet another newer one, here and there, on boobtube ah youtube, yeah, that's what I mean...that's the ticket! Usually a 2 or 3 minute one, telling us that Leslie or Susan made a face or smiled at the reporter and said, "no..." and other one word or two intellectual pronouncements.I Gotta admit, I can't get over Leslie's eyes. Also, can we stay on topic here, sheesh. Read on and laugh.Did you all ever mistake a lyric, a sentence in a song, say,and soon, or later, laughed at yourself when you noticed, with further listening, that you got the lyric wrong?So, I was stumbling, as I tried to wake up this morning, yesterday, and dropped the coffee cup on to the coffee maker.Why? What does that have to do with Barker Ranch? Let's not be barking up the wrong tree. Southern Nights Spahnner nights. Have you ever known a Spahnner night.Free as a breeze, not to mention Diane and Sadie's bare feets. (where does the apostrophe go on 'feets' plural?)Have any of you noticed Barker nightsit's precious beauty lies beyond the eyes running through your soul,...feels so good ...mystery ...Then, at the end of the song, Glen sings that to stop this world from fighting da da la la da da la. Yeah, if only they stopped the violence and fighting from Spahnning nights to some valleys or even to Jerusalemla da lada da California Dreams and Rocky Mountain highs. Where did they go
You know, that just goes to show you that education 'ain't everything.'With an equal number of college credits to have a degree in English, as I had in another subject when I got my college degree, you'd think that I would know the word 'feet' is fine by itself.Also, I had a hard time typing the comment as it seems that using the backspace screwed up the sentence as I would try to correct a word or phrase, here and there,so I just erased something about Glen Campbell, which was that:he was part of the Wrecking Crew which played on a lot of the 60's rock/pop tunes and albums, including more than a few Beach Boy songs.He was called in by Brian Wilson and so Campbell hung around with them, including with, of course, Dennis Wilson. There sure was a lot of interaction going on as we know. Like Charlie and Dennis Wilson, for example. He apparently lived in the infamous Laurel Canyon for some time. I've read that a couple of the Beatles visited that place, too. The more one reads about Laurel, the weirder it seems to get.Abigail Folger having a house there and some of our friends from Spahn going there, like to the house Mama Cass lived in and so on. Very strange.
Holy duck it's Jempud
Yep, Miss Patty, on a migratory route flying south. It's been a few years since I was here - I remember well when Evilliz set up this forum. She and I had been active on Cats' forum and parted company with Cats at about the same time though for different reasons. In recent years I kind of ran out of things to say about this case, really, so have not participated. Guess there's a new generation of posters now.
yes ma'am the big wheel keeps on spinning. I hope you're well. xx
Sleeping Bag Sessions: If anyone apart from Dan S is interested, It was HW6/50 apparently. Ely Nevada was involved. This is a quote from my longstanding friend, who picked me up hitchhiking 34 yrs ago, about getting the creeps out there."As an aside, this exact area is where Stephen King set his novel ‘Desperation’ and though it is not a real town, while going across that route, I took a side venture off to the North of the highway to visit some old mining ruins, drove far out into nowhere and up a dead end canyon, Ruins were to be found, however when I stopped at the end to crack a beer and have a cigarette, I experienced a sense of dread and visceral fear (mind you I had a gun, and I was very unlikely to get mugged by the ghosts of the town rowdies), I still climbed back in my car, and drove post-haste back to the pavement 20 miles away. Mmmm."
Noswaith dda Jempud.
Milly: I live in northern Patagonia - the Welsh band is further south, mostly in the Province of Chubut. But there are still plenty of people who speak Welsh, of a kind. My first language is Spanish!
Jempud - Diolch! At least you recognised it. Your Cymraeg is da iawn. Dydw i ddim siarad Spanish. Nos da.
Puddle duck, hi ,long time no see.
Just finished reading most of the " inportant" books...when you see the girls sewing Manson's vest...it's peaceful and simple hippie summer fun...I was 14 in 69...getting my first tastes of " that" lifestyle...weed/acid..barefeet..music..girls..a $100 car...heaven..I can relate with getting away/ the early bus lifestyle...You have to wonder just when the madness took root...was it power/control freakdom that went to Charlie's head? Desperation to make cash? Kinda hard not to get pulled into the simple " pissed at Melcher I'll show him" stance leading to the murders.Then you have the Cupid copycat idea..holyhell..2 birds w one stone! Theres plenty of backup supporting the Helter Skelter fantasy.Ya have to wonder what it was like for the core group out in the desert when those acid visions turned to sand.Reality check.What kept Charlie from just taking off? Bet he wished he had once it became clear he'd never have the chance again.That earth mover burn did him in for good.Lynette is an enigma...seemingly sharp and creative but lacking simple self protecting abilities...you really do have to wonder if she intended to shoot Ford..bullet in chamber or not...clearly not one of her more lucid decisions...and her conduct during the trial...she pretty much put herself in jail for 30+ years..can you imagine???? On purpose?? I do understand it is a challenge in your late teens/ early 20s to understand just why you do what you do..under normal conditions...living a tripfog daily? You should touch ground occasionally...to remember your up/ down/ sideways.What I would give to see Lynette's original manuscript.I did read her book....which I enjoyed..marshmallows and poptarts and sugarplums galore..unfortunately
Thanks for sharing the video! Loved the tour and music.
Hi, Cooltide - lot of water under the bridge.
Hiya Jempud,good to see you're still splashing about the puddle,Crow
Bit of a sidebar here...Speaking of MOVIES Polanski's 10 min 1962 short film Ssaki (Mammels) featuring Frykowski ia uploaded to YouTube if anyone is interested/hasn't seen it before.https://youtu.be/jYh5yYeLkyI
He apparently played the uncredited role of the Thief. I no see no thief...
This must be a film that can only be understood by those who've read the book upon which it was based. I watched it twice and am very confused.
"Waiting For Godot" on snow
You actually understood it perfectly Whut!!
Doug,It reminded me of the downhill sledding scene in The Fearless Vampire Killers. Thanks for putting it up.
(per Ssaki) I could barely / hardly recognize Voytek. Didn't look much like his morgue fotos.
Looking up the history of the film, Ssaki, it says that the film starred Henryk Kluba and Michal Zolnierkiewicz. Says that Frykowski was listed as the financier, not an actor in it. I watched it and only saw the two actors unless I missed something.
Blogger Matthew said...Looking up the history of the film, Ssaki, it says that the film starred Henryk Kluba and Michal Zolnierkiewicz. Says that Frykowski was listed as the financier, not an actor in it. I watched it and only saw the two actors unless I missed something.At one point, I thought I saw one man on the sled while two others were far in the background, down on the snow, fighting. After that I only saw two men.
Apparently he played "The Thief"I didn't see any thief either
I caught that too...inconclusive but, it was probably him. His moment of cinematic glory and, an instrument in reeling Abigail into his web of brooding/dark Euroman mojo
This knife is a mystery, isn't it? Each of the killers report that Atkins lost her knife after stabbing Frykowski in the legs several times. Yet the knife found had neither blood or fingerprints on it. Bugliosi was baffled by this piece of evidence.However, it becomes clear if you actually follow Sadie's weapons:The 9mm she lost at Hinman's.The knife she lost at Tate.That's the one we're examining. Susan said she carried the bundle containing the changes of clothing and the knives up to the Tate residence. The bundle was then tossed over the gate to the driveway. Yet Sadie in her grand jury testimony describes scaling the embankment to the right of the gate with her knife clenched in her teeth.At another point she describes this knife as having a broken handle repaired with tape.Clearly not the knife found on scene.Now, where it was discovered should be examined now.According to the 2nd Homicide report the knife was found "beneath" the seat cushion. This was not the sofa, but the easy chairs bracketing the fireplace. Not the one with Sebring's jacket and kit, but the one North of there,between fireplace and bar.Crime scene photo discrepancy: in the photo, the knife is not "beneath" the cushion, but between seat cushion and backrest. Perpendicular, open, blade pointed at the ceiling.My guess is the photographer adjusted the knife in order to show the location, not the condition in which it was found.Not the tape repaired knife Sadie described.But we were following the knives, and we left them bundled with clothing, laying on the pavement inside the gate.So, who picked up the bundle after that.It's clear that was Linda Kasabian. According to the killers, Katie came to Linda for a knife before the slaughter began, Sadie also came to Linda to get another knife. Linda retrieved the bundle.More evidence is they expected to change clothes on the property (why take the clothes onto the property unless to use them there?). Linda fled down the hill to the car. Tex was angry about that. And Sadie's lost knife. They changed clothes in the car.Since we can safely establish that the knife that Sadie describes using and losing is not the one recovered at the scene. So what happened? This is my working theory:Sadie did not lose one knife, she lost two.Do we have evidence? Again, Atkin's testimony.Tex told Sadie to kill Sharon.Sadie said "I can't "Why? Maybe Sadie's next statement explains that:She pulls Sharon's arms behind her so Tex could stab her.My conclusion: you need two hands to pull two arms.Sadie has already lost Linda's knife. However, she finds her knife, tape repair, Frykowski's blood on it and stabs Sharon Tate with it until Sharon stopped screaming. Linda's unblooded knife is left behind. This line of questioning "solved" some other mysteries as well.
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