Monday, October 4, 2021

More Charlie Lies and Two Dummies Do A Dumb

Three dummies actually but one was never charged. Below is the best photograph you will ever see of Kathleen Maddox. Their family brand of crazy shows up in her later photos but here she looks more mischievous than irascible. I doubted this was even her, asked Patty, she asked someone else, and we found out together this is Kathleen's prison intake photo. 

Kathleen looks unconcerned. I'd be a nervous wreck but I probably place a higher value on my toasted Dave's Killer bread with Irish butter and whipped cream cheese so lovingly fortified with a couple of freshly ground coffees (lord have mercy) each morning before a nice bike ride. 

Next comes the uncharged dummy, Dummy #3. Rest assured she would've been in the slammer with Kathleen and Luther Maddox if they committed their crime today. Dummy #3's middle name is Ophelia. Not quite the social status afforded to the daughter of Polonius and possibly not as crazy as that Ophelia but then again Ophelia was a fictional character so who knows. 

Or maybe she's named after the goddess. I actually never thought of that until now. No worries. Just pick whichever origin story you like best and roll with it. That's all Manson scholarship is a lot of the time anyway amirite?

Our Ophelia is pretty but Art Ophelia will always be prettier. Unless you have like an Arbus but really that's more of a modern concept anyway. Millais' Ophelia is my favorite Ophelia since I know you're wondering. I cut my Photoshop teeth on this painting over and over in the years leading up to Y2K when the world was supposed to end. 

Oh, girl. Don't drown yourself. I know my graphics are awful but people occasionally tell me I'm a decent typist. My mom especially. And the friends I make read my posts because I define myself by forced compliments.  

I like them french-fried potaters mmhmm. 

Luther possibly used some of the robbery money at the barber. He should've waited a few days. The haircut would've been free. 


I haven't hopped into the Scott family yet. Not sure if I will. Some of you already have the info locked down in private trees and I know it. I see them. Let me in please and I will love you forever. 

Or if you think I'm a killer AND a typist you can tell Matt and he will tell me. 

As far as the Maddox's go, hold on we're pausing at nature vs. nurture again it's unavoidable, I don't see anything different in their history than I see in my own family history or any of the histories I come across in my genealogy work. 

Charlie's maternal grandfather's side of his family, the Maddox's and Carroll's, were in the USA for a good long while before the USA was even a country. They moved westward alongside the big glob moving westward and fought in every war and etc just like Charlie told us. He is a Son of the American Revolution and everything else all the way up to his birth. Relatives who are unaware they're related to Charlie are probably still getting deployed. 

Don't kid yourself. Charlie's story is an American one. He wasn't something other than us. He was us. 

Let's talk about Charlie's childhood. All of us collectively didn't want to deal with raising him, correct? 

Same for the thousands of unwanted little boys living the same awful life right now. Charlie was Kathleen's mess and today's kids are their own mothers' messes, bootstraps and all that, and none of it is ever our problem. 

We didn't kill anyone and neither should any of the killers from any of the eras ever. 

Rise, oh ye creams and creamettes! The folks across town aren't having problems rising. We're in the land of opportunity for crying out loud! 

And then we have the nerve to feign shock and disgust when one of those abandoned little boys emerges from our cages and institutions as a hardened adult who spits at our rules and comes right at us.

The shame. Sure we were busy but our busyness created Charlie. And Charlie was so angry about it he took some suckers down with him so he wouldn't be alone. 

Anyway. I'm doing that cart and horse thing again. Let's go back to the lies that put good-hearted dupes like Lynette Fromme into prison. 


As much as I can, anyway. Kathleen was a couple of months away from turning thirteen when her dad, Charles Milles Maddox, died at forty-seven from lobar pneumonia. Kathleen would've been in the fall of her 7th grade year if you're playing along from home in America.  

Charles Milles Maddox was a career railroad man after he got out of the army. He married nineteen year old Nan Ingram when he was twenty-two. They remained married until his early death. Same address. Four kids spaced every two years. Not quite the wild backdrop our Charlie wanted people to believe when he provided exclusive interviews to author Lynette Fromme for her book Reflexion

Fine. Whatever. When he wrote her letters. 

A year and a half after her dad died, Kathleen's older sister Aileen passed at just twenty. Pneumonia again. She was a business school graduate. According to her obit, Aileen was "very popular and well-liked by a wide circle of friends who are deeply shocked and grieved by the news of her untimely death."

Hmm. Doesn't appear super criminal-ish but hey I'm no Mike McGann. I could be missing something.

Again, Aileen earned her business school degree during the Great Depression. 

In case you're keeping score, that's one Maddox sibling removed from the equation. If you read Reflexion, you're aware that Charlie describes his family as such...  

For the most part, everyone believes him. Sure, researchers will call out Guinn over a well-worn prostitute comment and beat him to death with it but who goes farther? 

There's really no reason to anyway. It's easier to have a villain from the lower classes. Absolves us easier. They are animals. 

As usual, I'm using the kindle version of Fromme for easier searching. "Off to another aunt and uncle. Even as a child, I knew they were not smart (93)." 

Okay, one aunt is left. 

There's that word "popular" again. Maybe it meant criminal a century ago. Let's hire an etymologist.  

I don't know what happens to our man Cecil and his bow tie. He immediately drops off the map. Neither Cecil or Glenna look like they live in a shack and lack shoes like Charlie puts out there via his manipulative bullshit. 

Glenna remarries a guy named Bill who is an engineer for the railroad. Both Glenna and Bill attended college during the Great Depression. They have one child not fifteen. Like Nan and Charley Maddox, her and Bill live at the same address forever. 

Charlie likes to say people in his family had no teeth. I'd bet my teeth that most college educated people then and now have their teeth in their late thirties and early forties. 

If you keep reading on to the next page in Kindle Fromme, Charlie has drunk, toothless, uncle Bill acting abusive and doing an improv Boy Named Sue on him in front of Charlie's super-religious, Nazarene, grandmother, Nan. 


Maybe you've never been around Bible thumpers for real. It's possible you only think you have. Or perhaps you come from a bunch of dirty teeming Catholics, or Buddhists in their robes, lots of choices, so I will stop what I'm doing and say this to you clearly. 

At no point in the history of holy rollers, I'm from down on that big river and my family is from the hills and I've seen Jethro take handfuls of floppy, wiggly snakes from heavy boxes while a skeleton in an old suit next to him froths at the mouth and believes he's speaking ancient secret languages so please hear me out. There is nary a single religious hillbilly grandmother who would not remove her Bible from her purse and smack the life out of Uncle Bill's skull on the charge of day drinking in front of children alone. Not to mention tormenting a child while drunk. 

Alcohol does not exist in that world in any acceptable way. Not even a single drop. Corn liquor and the devil fight nightly battles with Wesley and Jesus. Sometimes Calvin helps.  

Anyway, and just as a quick aside, Charlie wraps up his charming moonshine story and right away says, "I've never had no one to hold to. The warden, the judge -- they were God to me until I caught them lying (93). "

His comment is so layered. He completely got me. I can't not have empathy for the dude. 

As a critical reader, I notice Fromme arranges her book like that here and there. Did she know Charlie lied on that level? Is she acknowledging it? I probably read too much into things. 

Next page. Charlie is in court. "Then I ran right into my aunt coming to take me back and on the train again out of Kentucky and on to West Virginia to the prison where mom and Luther were (94)." 

And just so we're together on this point, the aunt who retrieves Charlie is Glenna who he said was not smart. All three remaining Maddox siblings are accounted for and Glenna seems to me like she does indeed care about Charlie. 

I know others disagree and think Charlie comes from a long line of criminals. That can be totally true with the Scott's but I need evidence outside of "so-and-so told me" to get me off this hill when it comes to the Maddox's and Ingram's. Until then, I'm going to think dad died too early and mom lost control of two of her kids when the traumas of losing their father and sister and everything that goes with it created rebellion inside of them. 

I'm possibly missing the mark here. Let's see how Luther and Kathleen did on their famous crime spree of 1939. 


Sorry. One odd fact first. Luther and Kathleen committed their crime August 1, 1939. Charlie shot Bernard Crowe August 1, 1969. Yes, I'm aware that Crowe date is also out there as July 1, 1969. 

But Bo knows Manson and I go with Bo. We collectively owe that dude so much. Thanks for housing the research year after year, Bo. 

I wonder if Charlie knew about the dates coinciding at the time? ooEEoo. 


That's not exactly how it went down but the gist is there. I grabbed the clipping from this great post from Deb. There is nothing I will ever find online that she has not found already. The article is one of  the shortest of the available options and the deets are almost all in there. Probably why she chose it. 


August 1, 1939
North Charleston, WVA. 

Kathleen (Charlie's mom) and Ophelia are hanging out down by the bars in North Charleston. Kathleen is twenty-one and Ophelia is six years older. They remain into the evening. The report you can print from Deb's above linked article is blurry and you can correct me if you're better at deciphering bold blurry typewriter courier font from 1939 but it looks like Kathleen and Ophelia step into a little dairy convenience store to buy some "cheese" at 10 pm. The word could also be choices or a million other things that start with "c" but cheese seems likely. 

Immediately prior to entering what might be named the Valley Doll Dairy, they meet their victim, Frank S. Martin, in the street. Kathleen says in the investigative report that she thought Frank would move on while they were inside the store but he was waiting for the girls when they exited. 

I wonder if Frank had any premonitions to flee while he waited? More likely, he stood swaying and salivating while his little general whispered sweet promises of easy conquests. I pictured him smoothing down his hair. 

The trio of new friends chat for a moment before Frank invites Kathleen and Ophelia to Dan's Beer Parlor on State Street, which was just a short walk from the store. They drink beer at Dan's until approximately 11:20 pm. Frank, possibly already tipsy considering the hour, makes the mistake of flashing his money to the girls when he pays for a round of drinks. 

Frank, Frank, Frank. Not many years away from tripling Kathleen in age but nevertheless thinking he could get some tail from her and or her friend on a random Tuesday night while his wife and kids waited at home. His routine appears kinda practiced at this point but Frankie baby is forty-nine years old and about to find out how much things have changed in the decades since he first debuted in the barroom olympics. 

The girls use the restroom together like ladies have forever. Unbeknownst to Frank he has fallen into the company of a pair of vipers. Over the sound of flushing toilets, Kathleen tells Ophelia that "it's awful that some of these old people had to have all the money" (Kathleen Maddox Statement Linked Above). 

"I said to Ophelia that I thought I would have part of it too (KM Statement)."  

According to Kathleen, Ophelia says something that is blurry but looks like, "I hope I die." That confuses me tbh. I could be misreading her statement or "I hope I die" might be a colloquialism for all I know. After that, Ophelia says, "I feel like reaching out," and does a quick snatching gesture at the air. 

Kathleen says both girls laughed. This prompts Kathleen to ask, "Suppose we call Luther?" Her question hangs in the air unanswered as they return to the booth they shared with Frank Martin. 

Does Kathleen sit down and realize she's acting like an asshole and decide to leave innocent awful Frank alone? Fuck no. Instead, she casually mentions to Ophelia that another girlfriend has told her about the availability of a room nearby. 

Operation Honeypot kicks off and Frank falls right into the trap. Kathleen says he asks her how much the room costs?  

$4.50," She replies, batting her innocent eyelids in his wolfish direction. 

"Do you have the money, my dear?"

"Why no, silly old poor little me still needs $3.50, Frankie-poo. I have but a single dollar." 

(I'm making the dialogue up as I go based on memories of how dames talked in Cagney and Marx Bros movies. You can add your own dialogue in your mind if something works better. I don't judge. I just type.)

Regardless, Frankie-poo peels three fresh greenbacks from his big fat knot, takes two quarters out of his coin purse, and hands it all over while pink cartoon love hearts emerge from the top of his head and flutter above him like adorable little birds. 

The game is already over, friends. Frank is the only person involved who doesn't know it yet.

Kathleen soon after sneaks off to the phone to call Luther. Guess where he is? 

Yep. Stupid and toothless Glenna and Bill's. Glenna answers. Poor Glenna. She puts Luther on the phone when her younger sisters asks for him. Kathleen tells Luther to meet her, Ophelia, and Frank at the Littlepage Service Station at the Two Mile Bridge. Littlepage might be wrong but it's Littlesomething for sure. 

They head over to the gas station. Luther is dropped off soon after. Kathleen says Luther got out of a car but didn't see who was driving or what kind of car it was because of the darkness at the late hour. 


Luther hops into Frank's 1932 Packard convertible with the waiting trio. This isn't Frank's car but it's the same make, model year, and color. Not sure about the white walls but they pop right off the screen so they're staying. 

Straight away, our crew rolls to the Blue Moon Beer Parlor where they drink and dance. 

Here are some 1939 dances in this incredible restored and colorized video I found on YouTube from the 1939 World's Fair. I loved the video so much I watched it for three straight days. There's even a tender, forbidden moment the camera catches and refuses to move on from that is so powerful it almost moved me to tears. All the swoons. 

I'll bet you a million dollars that I do not have that Kathleen Maddox was a good dancer. Somebody had to teach Charlie how to make those sparks fly from his fingertips, right? Luther could probably cut a rug too. 

While they are dancing together, Kathleen says that Luther asks if Frank really has money. She affirms and he's all okay it's on then let's get paid little sis. 


I know you want your money shot so let's get to it. Plans for an all-night party are made. Luther and Kathleen convince Frank to take them home to pick up some clothes and etc while leaving Ophelia in the Blue Moon to await their return. Frank doesn't know it but Ophelia is about to cut out as soon as they leave. 

Did I forget to mention that everywhere these dummies went that night they were known by the employees and customers? Yep. Shitting where they eat as they say. Let's see if that mattered. 

I'm not sure how they got Frank to do it, but Luther and Kathleen have him pull off near that big dirty river and Luther exits the car. Maybe he said he had to pee. Not sure. Doesn't matter. 

Luther walks around the convertible to where Frank is sitting. He tells Franks to get out of the car in a quiet, steady voice. 

Frank laughs. 

Luther says he ain't playin. 

Frank complies. 

This is a robbery. Gimme your shit, Frank. 

Now, the amount is always retold as $35 but Frank actually had $27 in his wallet. That's almost $532 in today's American money. Frank was rolling around with a grip on a Tuesday night, wasn't he? 

(And don't be down in the comments talking about how you always have 3k or even 30k on you. It's only going to make me think your penis is small or create some other negative assumption inside my head and same goes for everyone else who reads your comment. Pro tip for pedants.)  

I have to watch my negative comments toward readers btw. Matt threatened to dock my spending account over it. 

How will I be able to afford Packards with whitewalls if that happens? Is my Charlene Cafritz out there? If you are please remember I'm scared of devil stuff and also don't like hippie smells or even lifestyles where I have to go places with other people and order from servers and fake haha and interact and wear pants with buttons or shoes or any of that omg. 


Apologies. I've only had coffee and brownies today and I am flying while trying to reel in this missed deadline. 

Here's where I go from not giving a fuck about this robbery to thinking Luther is a piece of shit. After robbing Frank of his billfold and keys, there were no phones to take in those days, Luther blasts Frank over the head with a large ketchup bottle filled with salt that he pilfered from the Blue Moon. Since this happens near Pittsburgh, PA, I'm going with Heinz. They make the best ketchup anyway. 


Kathleen hears the bottle break over Frank's noggin. Frank falls to the ground, out cold, and ends up a ditch next to the road. Luther walks back to the car, climbs into the driver's seat, and those cold-hearted motherfuckers drive away and leave Frank for dead. 

Ophelia arrives back at "home" the same time Luther and Kathleen do. Together, they go out and dump Frank's car on a side street, walk to a restaurant, get a cab to a local spot that has cabins, rent either one or two, and settle in for the night. 

Before we move on, let that sink in. They didn't even try to sell the Packard or hide it until they could. Criminals do things like sell the car. That's what crime is kinda. Essentially, they stepped over $2k in today's money to make $500. 

Fortunately, a night watchman for a company where one of Frank's sons later has a career sees Frank crumple to the ground and is able to help. The law arrives by one a.m. in the form of Troopers Musgrave and Starcher. Their investigation begins in the early hours of August 2, 1939. 

Luther left the ketchup bottle at the crime scene. He'd told Frank his name was John Ellis so at this point it's still John Ellis' ketchup bottle. 

This all takes place at a railroad stop btw. Same company Luther and Kathleen's dad worked for and where toothless engineer Uncle Bill works at the time. All class and gratitude these two. 

By one the next afternoon, Troopers Musgrave and Starcher (accompanied by Frank) are in the beer parlors asking around for Kathleen and Ophelia. Because the girls are locals, everyone knows them. The bartenders. The other drunks. The guy who delivers the pretzels. 

Even the bar owner at the Blue Moon who immediately went to clean their booth after they left the night before and noticed the missing ketchup bottle. 

I said the postmaster too, right? 

Yep. Morons. 

The investigation doesn't last two hours. The troopers find Kathleen and Ophelia together at home, I'm guessing Glenna's place, Frank id's them, they get arrested, and the party moves downtown. 

Kathleen immediately admits to everything and gives up her brother and Ophelia. She says she doesn't know where Luther is but they'd all been day drinking that afternoon at the Daniel Boone Bar BQ on US 60 near Snow Hill, WVA. 

The cops head straightaway to the Daniel Boone Bar BQ and of course Luther is there. Let's go, Luther. Okay you got me how'dya figure it out. Shut yer mouth, boy. Slam slam slam go the police car doors and they drive away. 

By dinnertime, Luther and Ophelia have given full confessions. 

By 7 pm, Frank is back in his abandoned Packard with only a sore head and an angry wife as punishments for his immoral deeds. 

There is nothing in the police report about the ketchup bottle being used as a fake gun. Luther is matter-of-fact when describing the robbery in his confession. Not quite something I think a criminal would do but what do I know. 

I even asked my cousin Jackie Buns. His real name is a lot like that btw and he's not much of a fan of me calling him that lol. Jackie is a forensic genealogy wizard and I'm always pulling him in on my searches. Anyway, I asked if he thought they admitted to everything so quickly to keep Glenna out of the mix. With a completely emotionless face he sighed and said, "Imagine how many rides she probably gave those two. She likely had no idea what was going on."

Every time I remember that I smile. Jackie cracks me up. 

We're almost there, I promise. Luther gets ten years and Kathleen gets five. Ophelia somehow escapes justice. In his statement, I do give credit to Luther for trying to put the crime solely on himself. He possibly saved Ophelia. 

Luther also breaks out of prison at one point. Guess where he goes? 

Good job. 

Glenna's house where she quickly talks Luther into turning himself in. Toothless, stupid Glenna. Who btw is living in the same place with the same people just like always. 

Eventually, Luther serves his time and is freed. Unfortunately, his $27 robbery turns out to be a life sentence. He dies shortly after returning home from prison to Glenna's house. He appears to have turned his life around. 

Let's put this to bed. We've all seen the same photos. None of these people look like the Hillbilly Bears. They attended college while people starved in city streets. Their environments appear from the outside at least as decently stable. 

Kathleen and Luther immediately admitted to their crime. Criminals don't do that unless there's some benefit in it for them. Denying things and hiring lawyers lessens punishments. Every criminal knows as much. 

Luther's sister talked him into turning himself in when he ran away from the prison. 

The Maddox's were not criminals. Kathleen and Luther went off the rails and paid the price. Charlie paid the price too. Frank Martin got away with it. Ophelia I followed until the end of her life. She never married or had a family. 

There's an interview out there where Charlie says Kathleen committed her crime to feed him. I was going to call that another lie, it surely is, but thinking about him saying that makes me feel awful for him. 

Everything, all these things we type and argue about, it all boils down to Charlie's mom had her own issues, she didn't take care of him, we didn't take care of him and MANY others in this milieu, and we are where we are because of it. 

The rest of it is just plot points really. 

Anyway. I'll see you in the comments. I'm about to lightly nuke another brownie, run my coffee grinder, and start typing up my next things. 


Oh! An announcement! 

If you'd like to take part in a discussion next weekend hosted by this blog and the members of The Paulcast, I believe we are going live at 1030 pm EST Sunday. We will publish a post here a few hours before the show. 

The topic is Karate Dave. Because every story needs a hero. 


starviego said...

One odd fact first. Luther and Kathleen committed their crime August 1, 1939. Charlie shot Bernard Crowe August 1, 1969. Yes, I'm aware that Crowe date is also out there as July 1, 1969. But Bo knows Manson and I go with Bo.

Bo Emerson says it was Aug 1? Not sure I agree. If true, a timeline change like that would be pretty significant.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Star - "Crowe, according to testimony taken during the trial, was shot on Aug. 1, 1969, a week before the Tate killings. The shooting apparently was over a business transaction between Manson and Crowe. Meanwhile, two other Manson “family” members were arraigned today in different courtrooms on separate charges."

SixtiesRockRules! said...

Thank you for this further explication of the 1939 "incident" that played a pretty major role in shaping young charlie's future. Extra kudos for including that original 1930's print ad for heinz ketchup....damn, the copywriters in those days sure did know how to make their products sound irresistible!๐Ÿ˜„๐Ÿ‘

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Thanks, 60's. I appreciate you. I believe that is an actual 1939 ad for the ketchup as well. At least that's what Google told me.

I started out attempting to write a short, true crime book about Luther and Kathleen's crime but quickly found I lacked necessary true crime book criteria such as a body, even though leaving someone unconscious in a ditch could be considered attempted murder I suppose. And then no investigation really since they confessed right away. And then no trial. I knew I couldn't sell it.

So I thought I'd write the crime up, stick it in the library here so anyone in the future can quickly find out what happened, and head on over to the canteen for an ice cream. I dunno.

Buntline said...

That's where they get you. Ice cream sales.

Speaking of dairy matters, the store was Valley Bell Dairy on Roane Street, which is very close to Lee Street (formerly State Street). Couldn't find a menu or price list, so left with an image of them both munching on blocks of Cheddar.

I do think Ophelia married in 1949.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Lol with their molars. I saw her marriage too but it was time to wrap it up. You rock, Buntline. I hope you're free Sunday night to talk some Karate Dave on

What do you think Ophelia said in the lavatory? "I hope I die?"

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Truly a Kanawha story.

starviego said...

Atkins, in one of her books, claims the shooting of Crowe led to the murder of Hinman, which led to TLB. So she is clearly endorsing the July 1 shooting date. Which is what is now generally believed to be true.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Well shit if Sadie said it case closed. This is hardly a new claim. Beyond that, every time I spend an hour or two on this case I find things that are generally believed to be true that have no backing other than someone said something that was repeated a thousand million times.

I'm willing to reserve judgement, I don't care which day it was, but a police report would be nice before we definitively pick a date probably.

starviego said...

Here's some evidence from the trial transcripts:

Box 16 vol5019 pg60of166 CROWE
Q(Bugliosi): In early August of 1969, did you go to El Monte with Rosina and several other people? ...
The Court: What time is this?
Mr. Keith: Early August, 1969.
Kay: On this incident that took place on Aug 1st, the marijuana,... Mr. Watson took the money from this Negro fellow...

Box 21 vol8018 Dr. Fort
Fort: one of the depositions the fact that within a week of the killings he had stolen some $2,000 in a marijuana... purchase. .... As I recall, it was roughly a week before. ...
Mr. Bugliosi: But this took place a week, just a week before these murders...
Mr. Burbrick: ... on the part of Mr. Kay, is the fact that he knew this Crowe incident occurred in June, and not a week before this murder.
Mr. Kay: It occurred on August 1st, Mr. Burbrick.
Mr. Bugliosi: Yes, on August 1st.

For me all this confusion just indicates one salient fact: No one--not the prosecutor, not the defense, not the judge--was allowed to see any police report on the shooting of Bernard Crowe. And to this day no one knows the names of the detectives who responded.

Torque said...

Crowe was of course treated in hospital. If that hospital is known, and if records have been kept, a search of all gunshot wound victims for July and August 1969 could furnish an answer.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Starviego - Thanks, dude. You think Bugliosi disappeared the evidence to fit his narrative? Crowe just gets to sit there while Stephen Kay from his mother gets to call him a "negro fellow" I suppose.

Torque - Excellent idea. This study moves much better with collaboration.

All - I'm not a numerology person and possess not even the slightest knowledge on the subject, but we have so many early August dates swirling around the Manson folks that it just amazes me. Coincidences, sure why not. But it's just wild how much August we have in the Mansonverse.

For example, I'm working on the case for David Baker as Karate Dave this week. Baker was engaged one August 14th and also died later on another August 14th. That was a crazy time for the Manson crew in '69 as we know.

I feel like I find things like that quite a bit tbh. Billy had awful days in August throughout his life. Maybe we are more tied together than we think. It's crazy.

starviego said...

But if police and prosecutors had endeavoured to move the date from Aug 1 to July 1, what would they have gained? I don't see how it benefits the official theory by doing that.


Another clue:
Tex Watson, Will You Die For Me? pg65of120
Re Crowe: ...At the ranch the next day, Charlie couldn't stop talking about how he “plugged blackie.”
(Oddly, he says this happened around July 15)

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Starviego - I've noticed via my own genealogy work that absolutely everything ever is messed up somehow. Misdated, someone gets the wrong initial, their birthplace is different, all kinds of stuff. The US Birth Index or some such data warehouse has my birthdate incorrect right now and I'm still living.

It can really be either date.

In other news, someone from the Paulcast knows a lot about MKULTRA and wants to talk to someone here about it in regards to this case. You guys should talk if you're interested.

Proteus said...

GreenWhite RE: all that August, it's just a variant of the confirming instance. Like when you're thinking of buying one make of car and suddenly you see them everywhere. Any date has a 1 in 12 chance of being in August, and now that you're thinking about it you're noticing them more. Nothing to with numerology either - now there's an arcane [and ridiculous] occupation.

Still enjoying your fresh approach - you've livened things up around here.

Buntline said...

What do you think Ophelia said in the lavatory? "I hope I die?"

It's a puzzle, but that the statement definitely seems to say, "I hope I die, I felt like reaching out".

My best guess is that it was some 1940s cool kids' exclamation to add emphasis, possibly related to "cross my heart and hope to die". There had been an early 1940s song entitled "I Hope to Die if I Told a Lie" recorded by Little Jack Little in 1942, and by The Ink Spots in 1944.

But don't snap your cap, sugar puss.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Proteus - You are surely correct.

Buntline - Did you like the 1939 dances from the YT video? I'm guessing you found the older in age photos of Ophelia and her mom. I am of their clan back in Scotland but really I'm from every clan. They liked their procreating over there I think.

Zeke002 said...

Speaking of warped offspring, G/W, might you be the illegitimate spawn of Thomas Melton and Hunter T.?
How's about a top ten of interesting historical sidekicks.
I am fond of Buell Wesley Frazier and Emma Borden and such. In the TLB world it has always been Ella Jo for me. Of course those who gave Billy G. a ride home that night could trump Ella.

grimtraveller said...

GreenWhite said:

"Crowe, according to testimony taken during the trial, was shot on Aug. 1, 1969, a week before the Tate killings

That comes from a January 22nd 1971 newspaper report whereas on September 10th 1970, it was established during TJ's questioning during the trial that the incident happened "in early July '69." In every single episode I've ever heard recounted of the Crowe shooting, those recounting have never put it after the murder of Gary Hinman. It has always come before, whether it's Bugliosi, Stimson, Atkins, Watson, Manson, pretty much everyone that comments on it.
During TJ's questioning, it comes up 3 times that the incident took place "in early July." Interestingly, Linda Kasabian recounts hearing, from Mary Brunner, an incident that happened during the Hinman killing, when the gun Bobby had, went off. She has absolutely nothing to say about the Lotsapoppa incident ~ because it happened a few days before she arrived. She arrived on Independence Day.
From gas receipts, it was established Charlie headed up to Big Sur on August 3rd and picked up Stephanie Schram the next night. So this would mean that he left Spahn more or less the day after shooting Crowe ~ if it was August 1st.
In a sense, during the penalty phase, it didn't really matter what the date was, which, I suspect, is why no one went out of their way to correct or emphasize it. TJ had already testified to the date, Irving K was too busy trying to make Lotsapoppa look stupid, Charlie had already been found guilty and was never charged with attempted murder regarding Crowe......

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Thanks, Zeke. I'm a son of a bartender and a ball player who threw 0-2 curves into the dirt. I am probably barely worthy to shelve Melton and Hunter's books at a distant branch library that used to be a Fotomat.

I mentioned in an earlier post that my aunt's books from a grad school modern poetry class were left in a spare bedroom at our house until I discovered them at maybe age ten. I went straight from Narnia to Plath and Sexton. Coney Island Of The Mind was a big one for me. Cummings saying he will not kiss their f-ing flag hit me in the face like a hurricane. Sexton probably significantly warped my ideas about sex and closeness fo shizzle.

Definitely liked the poets first.

I will offer Jack Bunsby as a companion to Dickens' dear Captain Cuttle. Those two make me smile whenever I think of them. Today cutting the grass for example.

Do you think Billy really got that ride home? I always wonder about his trip down there to get his tv dinner and the subsequent trip back up the hill.

Zeke002 said...

Ah, the poets. I worked at McLeans Hospital in my hometown where Sylvia is of course infamous.
Billy's ride up the hill? With TLB there will always be various degrees of certainty. Sometimes it is just more conversational to go with the Life magazine version.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Ooh, Zeke. Did you ever see this? A bit of memory lane for you maybe.

Zeke002 said...

Garcias. Delicious treat. A tour of McLean and the nearby Fernald School are a must for psych/history buffs.

G. Greene-Whyte said...

7 Nov 2021

If anyone is on West Coast time or stays up later in other time zones and wants to hang out tonight, I'm a guest host on The Paulcast tonight at 730 pm PST.

My discussion will center on unique perspectives, research methodologies, and cognitive dissonance in the Manson study.