Little mentioned. Tip-toed around by all. Better watch what you say....
Though when you think about it, the question of race permeates this case from top to bottom.
Maybe it was baked in, from the beginning:
--Helter Skelter, Vince Bugliosi, pg555
"Father: unknown. He is alleged to have been a colored cook by the name of Scott, with whom the boy's mother had been promiscuous at the time of pregnancy."
--Or start with the Helter Skelter Theory itself. The apocalyptic race war, black vs white. It would kick off when the black militants/panthers/muslims went to the rich whites living in the hills, and slaughtering them. The pissed-off white people would then go down to the black ghetto and slaughter all the unaware Uncle Toms, while the black muslims were in hiding. After the mass murder of the blacks, the muslims would come forth and cry "Look what you done to my brothers!" Causing the whites to erupt in civil war, whites against whites, until they had slaughtered each other. Whereupon the black muslims would emerge, kill all the remaining whites, and then emerge victorious in the racial war. Except Charlie and Family were hiding out in the Bottomless Pit for 40 years, after which the blacks would recognize his racial superiority and hand power back over to whitey.
Jess Bravin's Squeaky: the life and times of Lynette Alice Fromme
people.virginia.edu/~sfr/enam481/groupd/BIO.HTM
...the Black Muslim movement particularly interested Manson during his incarceration.
In fact, the whole idea of an apocalyptic race war came straight to Charlie from the Black Muslims.
Box 46 vol32 Watkins pg13
"..Charlie said it, that the Negro would--was going to clean up the mess that the white man made, which would be this entire society."
-----------------
--And then there's the evidence that the killers deliberately sought to cast blame on the Black Panthers at the Hinman, Tate, and LaBianca crime scenes:
www.mansonblog.com/search/label/Mary%20Brunner
When Bobby was stopped by the highway patrol in San Luis Obispo, he told the officer that he had bought the (Hinman)car from a "negro" for $200. Later on, during the interrogation, he then said that "negroes" had attacked Gary.
Box14 vol3087 Caballero testimony pg22of73
"She(Atkins) told me that Charlie Manson had wanted to bring Helter Skelter, and it wasn't happening fast enough, and the use of the word "pigs" was for the purpose of making them think that there were Negroes committing the crimes, because the Panthers and people like that are the ones that used the name "pig" to mean the establishment, and this was the whole purpose of it."
Box 21 vol8020 pg17of298
Kay: "...he(Watson) told Dr. Frank and Dr. Saurez that black people were supposed to be blamed for these murders."
----------------
You wouldn't know about it from reading Bugs' book, but blacks were in fact prime suspects from the outset:
--Coroner, by Thomas T. Noguchi and Joseph DiMona, c. 1983
pg129
..a word had been scrawled in blood: "Pig."
"What do you think that means?" I (Coroner Noguchi) asked the lieutenant.*
"I don't know," he said. "The blacks call the cops 'pig'--but none of the victims were cops."
*Probably LAPD Lt. Robert Helder
pg131
Criminals heavily into drug traffic were often black, and "pig," a word they might have used, had been scrawled in blood on the front door of the house.
pg139
The word "PIG" at the Tate house might have been written by a black drug dealer, as the LAPD believed.
Restless Souls by Brie Tate c.2012 pg73
PJ Tate: "Many speculated that the word PIG left in blood at Sharon's house was a calling card from the revolutionary party the Black Panthers."
Interview with Roman Polanski:
www.cielodrive.com/archive/a-tragic-trip-to-the-house-on-the-hill/
He heard the Hollywood gossip: that the killers were devil-worshippers, that it was a Mau-Mau type slaughter.
Knock Wood by Candice Bergen, c.1984 pg202
Los Angeles was in shock. ... Speculation spread about the mysterious murders and who the killers might be. Were they drug dealers or black militants?
dated August 14th, 1969
www.cielodrive.com/archive/add-guard-units-in-area-of-murders/
The series of sadistic murders has spawned a flurry of rumors in the greater Hollywood area as to “who done it.” These rumors, ranging from “black militants on a white blood-letting spree” to “the Mafia,” ....
--------------------
The black militant theory was initially reported in the media. For a short period of time anyway before it disappeared.
'The Sharon Tate Murders' by Peter Maas
From The Ladies’ Home Journal, April 1970 Edition
"One of the first police theories was that black-power militants, out to terrorize the white community, were responsible for the killings."
The Family, pg350
While they were at the ranch near Olancha(2nd week of Aug), Tex went into town and returned with a paper that accused "Mau Mau devil worshippers" of the (TLB)murders.
www.cielodrive.com/stephanie-schram-statement-12-04-69.php
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: "...the news said something about these people being Mau Mau type people."
-------------------
--Did the Black Panthers visit the Spahn Ranch? Why did Bugliosi ignore this episode in HS?
--And then there's the evidence that the killers deliberately sought to cast blame on the Black Panthers at the Hinman, Tate, and LaBianca crime scenes:
www.mansonblog.com/search/label/Mary%20Brunner
When Bobby was stopped by the highway patrol in San Luis Obispo, he told the officer that he had bought the (Hinman)car from a "negro" for $200. Later on, during the interrogation, he then said that "negroes" had attacked Gary.
Box14 vol3087 Caballero testimony pg22of73
"She(Atkins) told me that Charlie Manson had wanted to bring Helter Skelter, and it wasn't happening fast enough, and the use of the word "pigs" was for the purpose of making them think that there were Negroes committing the crimes, because the Panthers and people like that are the ones that used the name "pig" to mean the establishment, and this was the whole purpose of it."
Box 21 vol8020 pg17of298
Kay: "...he(Watson) told Dr. Frank and Dr. Saurez that black people were supposed to be blamed for these murders."
----------------
You wouldn't know about it from reading Bugs' book, but blacks were in fact prime suspects from the outset:
--Coroner, by Thomas T. Noguchi and Joseph DiMona, c. 1983
pg129
..a word had been scrawled in blood: "Pig."
"What do you think that means?" I (Coroner Noguchi) asked the lieutenant.*
"I don't know," he said. "The blacks call the cops 'pig'--but none of the victims were cops."
*Probably LAPD Lt. Robert Helder
pg131
Criminals heavily into drug traffic were often black, and "pig," a word they might have used, had been scrawled in blood on the front door of the house.
pg139
The word "PIG" at the Tate house might have been written by a black drug dealer, as the LAPD believed.
Restless Souls by Brie Tate c.2012 pg73
PJ Tate: "Many speculated that the word PIG left in blood at Sharon's house was a calling card from the revolutionary party the Black Panthers."
Interview with Roman Polanski:
www.cielodrive.com/archive/a-tragic-trip-to-the-house-on-the-hill/
He heard the Hollywood gossip: that the killers were devil-worshippers, that it was a Mau-Mau type slaughter.
Knock Wood by Candice Bergen, c.1984 pg202
Los Angeles was in shock. ... Speculation spread about the mysterious murders and who the killers might be. Were they drug dealers or black militants?
dated August 14th, 1969
www.cielodrive.com/archive/add-guard-units-in-area-of-murders/
The series of sadistic murders has spawned a flurry of rumors in the greater Hollywood area as to “who done it.” These rumors, ranging from “black militants on a white blood-letting spree” to “the Mafia,” ....
--------------------
The black militant theory was initially reported in the media. For a short period of time anyway before it disappeared.
'The Sharon Tate Murders' by Peter Maas
From The Ladies’ Home Journal, April 1970 Edition
"One of the first police theories was that black-power militants, out to terrorize the white community, were responsible for the killings."
The Family, pg350
While they were at the ranch near Olancha(2nd week of Aug), Tex went into town and returned with a paper that accused "Mau Mau devil worshippers" of the (TLB)murders.
www.cielodrive.com/stephanie-schram-statement-12-04-69.php
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: "...the news said something about these people being Mau Mau type people."
-------------------
--Did the Black Panthers visit the Spahn Ranch? Why did Bugliosi ignore this episode in HS?
Gleason Documents
www.mansonblog.com/.../the-gleason-report-august... pg2of7
Officer Leigh stated he heard that the Black Panthers were at the ranch recently, probably July 26, 1969, and reportedly took pictures of the entire area.
Knox Documents
wvw.mansonblog.com/First-Spahn-Raid.pdf pg3of12
Judy Green..at Green Acres Ranch... north of Spahn Ranch off Iverson Lane, ...stated she had been threatened by numerous negro militants regarding burning her out because she reported them to the Fire Department... This observation occurred approximately July 19, 1969.
www.facebook.com/groups/1588416148120066/?notif_id=1618370352326809¬if_t=group_invited_to_group&ref=notif (comment by Paul Hart)
"... police ..visited Spahn Ranch on July 29, 1969 (just a little over a week before the TLB killings). Manson told the cops that he was expecting an attack by the Black Panthers because black men had already come to the ranch to start trouble. He also said the ranch had become an armed camp in preparation for an attack by the Panthers."
www.mansonblog.com/2017_11_06_archive.html
Diane Lake: “... I witnessed a very angry-looking African American man confronting Charlie one day. This was not something that happened often, and I later heard that Charlie assumed he was a member of the Black Panthers. ..."
murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/1040/life-charles-manson-chapter-18
PAUL WATKINS, My Life With Charles Manson - Chapter 18
"Last week some black dudes come here looking for Charlie… he says he’s going to cut them up.” "
(about July 25th or 26th of 1969)
[Keep in mind that just a day after the alleged visit by the BPs to Spahn, BB is marking the walls of the Hinman murder scene with the bloody pawprint, with the specific intention of casting blame on the Panthers.]
Or did Spahn Ranch visit the Black Panthers?
--www.cielodrive.com/updates/leslie-van-houten-interviewed-by-marvin-part/
16:00 minute mark
MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it seemed like after we knew what was going to come down we tried talking to leaders, you know, black leaders, and we saw that they were stalling.
And it was almost as though we had to make the first move for it to continue to develop, to get bigger so that it would happen the because the black man loves us so much that he would be our slave and do everything we said, let us beat him and mistreat him for so many years that he almost doesn’t want to do what he has to do, but he sees that he has to do it.
And so it was up to us to start it.
Others:
--xdell.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html
Ed Butler, propagated an op-ed piece in August 1969 titled “Did Hate Kill Tate,” in which he blamed the deaths on the Black Panthers for the crimes. ...Butler had previously recorded Lee Oswald’s declaration for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, an organization in which he was the only member. ...
Mae(Brussell) ... believed that in the months before the public had a face to go with the murders, speculation such as Butler’s tried to condition the public to accept the arrest and conviction of innocent blacks... .
--murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/385/
preston-guillory-deputy-sheriff
"My contention is this--the reason Manson was left on the street was because our department thought that he was going to attack the Black Panthers. We were getting intelligence briefings that Manson was anti-black and he had supposedly killed a Black Panther, the body of which could not be found, and the department thought that he was going to launch an attack on the Black Panthers."
-- Box 12b pg137of358
Nov 30, 1969 news magazine article by C.Robert Jennings
"A private investigator noticed a Tom Bradley sticker on Miss Folger's Firebird and brayed: "It's typical of the modus operandi of black militants." "
[What would a 'private investigator' be doing amongst all the reporters standing outside the front gate of Cielo? Was this guy some kind of shill, to plant the seeds for a "blame the Panthers" theory?]
--In LAPD Lt. Deemer's list of Family associates, compiled in Nov. '69, Bernard Crow(e) "Member of the Black Panthers" is listed.
Bugliosi touched on the subject, but then quickly dismisses the possibility:
Helter Skelter, pg93
Most(of the phoned-in tips) had come in following the release of Garretson, the callers blaming the murders on everyone from the Black Power movement to the Polish Secret Service, their sources imagination, hearsay, even Sharon herself--returned during a seance.
[In other words, if you thought the black militants might be involved, that was no better than saying you got your info from a 'seance.'
I would dearly like to have heard recordings of those phoned-in tips!]
The most puzzling reaction to the murders came from the black community themselves:
By the time the main TLB trial commenced in the summer of 1970, everybody knew that the killers wanted to blame the murders on black militants, to further Charlie's goal of an all-out race war. Now logically, this should have been a great propaganda coup for the black militant side, as they should have pointed out--long and loud--that this was just another example of how the white man was trying to blame the black people for his own crimes.
But instead there was total silence from the black community. Absolutely nothing from the news archives of black newspapers, nothing in any books, no statements or quotes at the time from any Black Panther, Black Muslim, or any black politicians, black ministers, or other civil rights leaders(and remains true to this day, as far as I can tell). Contrast this with a visible black protest presence at Van Houten's retrial seven years later:
The Long Prison Journey of Leslie Van Houten: Life Beyond the Cult by Karlene Faith c.2001 pg102 At LVH's second trial--1977
During the testimony about Helter Skelter and the portended race war, many people of African heritage showed up. Some would wince whenever the prosecutor would use the word nigger in reference to Manson's racism.
So why the silence during the TLB trial? Did somebody on high order that the link by downplayed? To ease racial tensions? Or to prevent anybody from pulling on that thread too much, out of fear a deeper connection would be discovered?
Can someone explain this?
July 21st, 1970 news article
www.cielodrive.com/archive/tate-case-jury-complete-defense-calls-it-tragedy/
Hughes disputed that Manson was anti-black, saying that while he served as Manson’s attorney the defendant was “always well liked by blacks at the county jail and, in fact, the Muslim prisoners protected him.”
57 comments:
Good work, Star. I like it that you cited your sources.
The part about Judy Green at Green Acres Ranch is interesting but the wording confuses me because it suggests they must have done something she thought was a fire hazard, she reported them to the Fire Department and they found out she reported them and threatened her. Is that how it should be interpreted or was she reporting them because they threatened to burn her out?
Do you think these were the same people who were arguing with Charlie on Spahn Ranch? I doubt these guys were there in connection with Bernard Crowe. I just wonder did Charlie et al cause some disturbance with them elsewhere which caused them to come. Leslie said to Marvin Part the family was going to black leaders to talk to black leaders (hmmm okay). Could they have talked to some people in LA somewhere and those are the ones who came to the ranch?
Star, how do you know black publications were not saying anything about getting the blame for Tate-Labianca? Did you search those publications or did someone else search and found nothing? If they didn't say anything maybe they had bigger concerns getting their attention and TLB didn't get on their radar very much(?)
Regarding the word PIG it doesn't necessarily point to black militants as it was a widely used term in the counter-culture at the time.
Just my two cents. I think you should research the black Muslim movement, the same movement that Manson heard being preached while in prison. The Nation of Islam were also infiltrating prisons such as scientology as a self help group. (and the modernized version of The Nation of Islam's blending of scientology)
The black Muslim extremists are not even to this day, fond of white people. They consider white people a creation that turned to be a mistake. Some also believe that white people should be eradicated. Cause in point. Right after the TLB murders, the Zerbra murders took place and the black men were black Muslim extremists
@James D. Small point of disagreement: Although a tiny handful of researchers claim that they MAY HAVE commenced "as early as 1970", the general consensus of most true crime writers is that the Zebra Murders didn't begin happening until October, 1973, which isn't exactly "right after the TLB murders".
I get that and agree. There were some murders that happened in 1970 that were very similar to the murders of 73 that were done by the Black Muslim extremists. But the concept was still there and happened after the TLB murders be it 1970 or 1973. The zebra murders were racially motivated murders done by black Muslim extremists. Around the time of those murders that was another set of murders in the San Francisco area known as the Black Doodler Murders...which the victims were also all white gay men...there isn't much known about that killer as he was never identified nor caught because the two survivors refused to testify at trial. That one was also not only racially motivated, but sexual orientation motivated as well. Looking in to the old archives LGBTQ magazine archives from the San Francisco area, those murders were sporadic and the writers made assocation to the Zebra murder killers and killings.
Could the contention be derived from the Helter Skelter motive as a retaliation as to what the so called Manson Family were allegedly trying to achieve...possible.
However it is interesting that Bugloisi took the Fountain of the World beliefs and applied them to Manson and his associates. They all refuted the Helter Skelter narrative, but later admitted it was true because to get parole, you have to admit the motive you were prosecuted on is true.
It should also be noted that Black Panther attorney, Luke Mckissack, whom was a potential defense attorney for Manson stated that Manson did not express the views of which he was being accused of...Helter Skelter...race war.
Mr. Humphrat said...
Star, how do you know black publications were not saying anything about getting the blame for Tate-Labianca? Did you search those publications or did someone else search and found nothing?
The only black publication I had access to was the archives of 'The Black Panther,' the zine put out by the BPs. So if anybody has ever heard of any black owned publication mentioning even mentioning TLB , I'd like to see that.
Other links:
Manson's Right Hand Man Speaks Out by Charles "Tex" Watson c. 2012 pg34
The spontaneous songs he sang in the confines of the family spewed forth this hatred, different from what he later released for public consumption. ... Helter Skelter became the theme of every song he wrote; a violent revolution, a bloody conflict between whites and blacks.
youtube.com/watch?v=RX_0PYzLCBg&google_comment_id=z12xj1ejosyxdt4zs04ccxji4yymhpcwgbo
Comments by JR RAY
In 1969, one of the witnesses against Manson, Paul Crockett, is on tape telling the police in a Death Valley town of Shoshone about this man named Charlie Manson who won't stop talking about Black Muslims gearing up to attack whites. Interesting sidebar to these killings.
Paul Crockett(implying Charlie had recent contact with the Black Muslims):
"...he(Manson) says the black man is getting ready to blow the whole thing open, that he talks to them, that they know him, that they tell him these things...."
Abigail Folger also had the far-left links:
www.mansondirect.com/police-report-tate-1st.html
In the past year, Abigail had been an active participant in Negro social work. She sponsored and attended rallies in the Watts area.
Restless Souls by Brie Tate c.2012 pg72
PJ surveils houseboats in San Marin(the Bay Area) as part of his own investigation in mid Sept. of 1969. A car he surveils "belonged to a high-ranking Black Panther..."
"Even more interesting, the investigators link him to Abigail Folger's social work."
Hinman also had links to the black radical set:
Bobby's 2010 parole hearing he told the board that the reason he put blame on black people is because he wanted to blame the murder on some of the "radical" people that Gary Hinman was involved with at UCLA. He also told the board that Gary was involved with black people that were radicals, and that he (Gary) was into radical philosophies, etc.
James D. The Manson Archives said:
it is interesting that Bugloisi took the Fountain of the World beliefs and applied them to Manson and his associates. They all refuted the Helter Skelter narrative, but later admitted it was true because to get parole, you have to admit the motive you were prosecuted on is true
I have some advice for you, mate. Read through the archives of this site and go through every thread and post since, say, April 2015. Pay particular attention to the numerous times this has come up and the plethora of times that your statement has been shredded to pieces and utterly debunked. Pay close attention to the number of parole hearings in which the perps, when invited by the parole boards down the years to give their versions of what happened, have gone against aspects of the court narrative. Recall that Leslie Van Houten is no longer in prison.
It's actually not true to say that the motive you were prosecuted on is what you must go with in parole hearings, because the prosecution does not even have to argue motive. None of the perps were convicted because of the motives. They would all still be convicted, regardless of the motives. The physical, eyewitness and circumstantial evidence, more than strung them all by the short and curlies. Bobby, Clem and Bruce didn't even have HS as an evidential motive in their trials.
Your anti-HS bias precedes any good points you might make, and that's a fatal flaw in just about anything you have to say about this case.
And just in case you need to have your memory refreshed, for the thousandth time, Pat Krenwinkel wrote, in blood, "HEALTER SKELTER" at the scene of one of the murders. Susan Atkins, in November 1969, told one of her cellmates that she felt at peace after the murders because it meant that now, Helter Skelter could begin, and this is on the record {read Ronnie Howard's and Virginia Graham's police interviews}. And most damning of all, Leslie Van Houten, to her lawyer Marvin Part, in December 1969, spelled out in detail how HS was the motivating principle behind the murders. I won't even mention that Gregg Jakobson, Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston were told a good 6 months before any murders what was going to happen and why and how the Family was placed within its parameters. And we won't go into Danny DeCarlo, Al Springer and Paul Crockett all being of the mind that Manson had HS firmly in the place of his mind, and that this was tied to their suspicions of his involvement in the Murders.
Just read the archives. And continue to deny and/or obfuscate the facts which lead you to make the kind of deliberately false statements you've made there.
It should also be noted that Black Panther attorney, Luke Mckissack, whom was a potential defense attorney for Manson stated that Manson did not express the views of which he was being accused of...Helter Skelter...race war
So what ? He expressed them to Vincent Bugliosi once he'd been sentenced to death ! He expressed them to Rolling Stone, pre-trial ! He expressed them to George Stimson years later ! That he didn't express them to Luke McKissack at a point when he was angling to represent himself, before much of his schtick were known is as surprising as a rainbow 🌈 in the sky, after a storm.🌩⛈
I'll tell you something interesting. The reason McKissack didn't act as a co-counsel for Charlie was because he felt it would act as a conflict of interest in what was his main cause, the Black Panthers, and putting the death penalty on trial. I think he was right. The smell that came with the various Manson trials would have seriously tainted what he was trying to do. Guilt by association plays heavily in some peoples' minds. 😕
" I have some advice for you, mate. Read through the archives of this site and go through every thread and post since, say, April 2015. Pay particular attention to the numerous times this has come up and the plethora of times that your statement has been shredded to pieces and utterly debunked. Pay close attention to the number of parole hearings in which the perps, when invited by the parole boards down the years to give their versions of what happened, have gone against aspects of the court narrative. Recall that Leslie Van Houten is no longer in prison."
Right. However, it wasn't until parole hearings that they started to admit Helter Skelter, the race war was true. Something they all refuted when accused.
Concerning Leslie's Marvin Part interview, if you read or listen closely, she said some whites would kill each other and some blacks would kill each other...
"Your anti-HS bias precedes any good points you might make, and that's a fatal flaw in just about anything you have to say about this case"
I never said I am Anti-Helter Skelter . I do not believe the race war BS. I have said Helter Skelter was real. It was real in it's literal definition. Confusion. It coincides with what they all said they were trying to achieve in freeing Bobby. Atkins also recounted this in Child of Satan, Child Of God.
MR. PART: Now, did you believe that the — that the black people would to have to start killing the white people?
MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, it wouldn’t be that way.
White man would kill white man. The black man would sort of be there, too, helping him along.
Because we — it was — it’s like white man is divided, you know. We aren’t united in our thoughts. And the black man is more together. They are more one in their thoughts, you know.
They’re — they’d — in here I’ve gotten a lot of talk about how they call each other sister and each other brother. But very seldom do two white girls say, “Hey, sister,’ you know.
They greet you when you come in, you know. Say, “Say, sister, come on in. Want a cigarette?” You know.
They don’t do that.
And so white man would kill white man for their beliefs. If they didn’t believe the same, they’re going to knock each other off.
And then black man would be there to sort of help them.
Crawling in the night..
" In the Truman and Eisenhower eras, Venta, who frequently made headlines for both his luck at the dog track and his repeated arrests for failure to pay child support, cut a unique figure. His message, however, could not have been more tailor-made for Cold War America.
Armageddon, prophesied Venta, would begin as an armed race war in the streets of America. (If Venta's vision of the future sounds oddly reminiscent of "Helter Skelter," it must be noted that strong debate exists regarding whether Charles Manson, who periodically lodged at the Fountain of the World circa 1968 and 1969, was privy to the teachings of the dead cult leader during his respites there.) In this conflict, Communist Russia, with its nuclear weaponry, would render military aid to African-Americans. But the Soviets would eventually reveal their true stripes, insisted Venta, by enslaving their African-American allies and terminating religious freedom worldwide. Still, fear was unnecessary, for Venta was actively gathering the 144,000, and knew of a hidden North American valley in which his Elect could hide during the bloodshed until the ordained day came for them to exit their secret refuge en masse, cast out the Soviet empire, free the enslaved, and restore religious freedom to mankind."
In what book, magazine article or online essay is that quote about Venta found?
Here is some prior research on Venta here on the blog
https://www.mansonblog.com/2012/07/sound-familiar.html?m=1
I have more links and sources. This one also includes the crucifixion of Venta.
https://www.utterlyinteresting.com/post/the-forgotten-tragedy-of-krishna-venta-and-the-wkfl-fountain-of-the-world
And here is the article the above is copied from that you asked about.
https://articles1.icsahome.com/articles/krishna-venta-sutherland-en7-3
Thanks for responding. I'm one of those people who have long held that Manson appropriated large portions of his "theology" from Venta. Bugliosi should have devoted several more pages to Venta in HS than he did.
James D. The Manson Archives said:
it wasn't until parole hearings that they started to admit Helter Skelter, the race war was true. Something they all refuted when accused
Again, not true. This is not what Atkins said to Virginia Graham or Ronnie Howard - long before any trial. And while Van Houten's descriptions certainly carry a lot of confusion {she talks of Blacks having wiped out Whites, then Blacks not starting things, then the Family showing Blacks how to start things, then Blacks rising up etc}, she does not use "Helter Skelter" as a euphemism for confusion.
It's also worth noting that none of the female defendants pleaded 'guilty' so naturally at trial, they weren't going to cop to HS or murder. But they did privately, to people they never foresaw telling anyone else. And Susan Atkins, in particular, flip-flopped on this topic so much that, as I have said many times over the years, one relies on her and her two books at one's own peril because there are so many contradictions, and her reliability is less than zero.
But when you have Ronnie Howard telling the police of Atkins, "she doesn't think too much of colored people. She thinks their, well, white people should stick together and colored people should stick together. You know, because I told you why they were doing some of this. She said she thought that it would make the colored people wake up and take notice that this is what they should do to get what they want out of the world, you know, some violence.." before she was ever accused of any part in the TLB murders, your point about race wars simply does not stand up. And just as significant as their understanding of HS, is the understanding that outsiders like Howard, Graham, DeCarlo, Springer, Jakobson and Crockett had of it. And apart from Jakobson, all before trial. In some cases, before the Family were even arrested at Barker. But this has all been gone into many times on these pages in the last 10 years. But one last thing I will say ¬> of course they would be copping to HS when the parole season began. It was the truth and they needed to be seen to be telling the truth, rather than playing Manson obfuscation games.
But Atkins didn't go along with it. Neither did she admit to stabbing Sharon Tate. She lived and breathed contradictions and died in a pitiful position.
James D. The Manson Archives said:
Concerning Leslie's Marvin Part interview, if you read or listen closely, she said some whites would kill each other and some blacks would kill each other...
Firstly, at the start of the interview, look at how she couches the phrase "Helter Skelter" and what accompanies it.
Note also how her various interpretations of Beatles songs {it's interesting that among her quotes is a line from 1969's "Come Together"} and Bible passages mirror those of Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston, a good 2 months before they gave those interpretations to Bugliosi. They couldn't possibly have got them from her, nor she them.
By the way, you missed out Leslie saying "Well, it seemed like after we knew what was going to come down we tried talking to leaders, you know, black leaders, and we saw that they were stalling.
And it was almost as though we had to make the first move for it to continue to develop, to get bigger so that it would happen because the black man loves us so much that he would be our slave and do everything we said, let us beat him and mistreat him for so many years that he almost doesn’t want to do what he has to do, but he sees that he has to do it.
And so it was up to us to start it." And also, "White man would kill white man. The black man would sort of be there, too, helping him along." And further on, "And so white man would kill white man for their beliefs. If they didn’t believe the same, they’re going to knock each other off.
And then black man would be there to sort of help them.
Crawling in the night."
By the way, where exactly does she say that "some blacks would kill each other..." ?
It coincides with what they all said they were trying to achieve in freeing Bobby. Atkins also recounted this in Child of Satan, Child Of God.
I shouldn't be, but I'm still surprised you continue to peddle this one, partly because the freeing Bobby story didn't turn up until they were already convicted, but especially as Atkins in her book recounts how she overheard Pat and Leslie discussing the possibility that Helter Skelter wasn't coming down, after all....
You would have thought that when Leslie talked to Marvin Part in December '69, that as she lands herself, Charlie, Tex, Bobby, Susan, Mary, Linda and Clem in the shit as regards murder, she would have absolutely nothing to lose by saying that the murders were committed to free Bobby. Remember, she's already landed him in the shit, regarding murder.
But not a word about freeing him being the reason for the murders !
And you know that if you are going to go with this "free Bobby" baloney, you have to also go with Leslie being part of the Hinman murder. That's the only way you can claim any kind of authenticity or consistency.
And you'd still be wrong.
"I shouldn't be, but I'm still surprised you continue to peddle this one, partly because the freeing Bobby story didn't turn up until they were already convicted"
That's easy to say... considering the defense rested after the prosecution and they didn't get to testify until the P. Phase of the trial...and was a story they continued to stick with there after. Had they been allowed to testify before the P phase, they may have testified to this as well then..
"And you know that if you are going to go with this "free Bobby" baloney, you have to also go with Leslie being part of the Hinman murder. That's the only way you can claim any kind of authenticity or consistency.
And you'd still be wrong."
Absolutely not, because we know she lied on the stand to more than likely protect Mary Brunner.
Furthermore, reading Paul Watkins testimony again, for example, he specifically mentions the "black Muslims" and your lack of acknowledging what the NOI doctrine is, shows you haven't studied it and looking at NOI members creating racially motivated murders several years after the TLB murders and how they teach white people should be eradicated. Manson definitely heard these teachings in jail.
Statement of Preston Guillory LASO deputy sheriff who participated in the Spahn Ranch raid:
murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/385/preston-guillory-deputy-sheriff
My contention is this--the reason Manson was left on the street was because our department thought that he was going to attack the Black Panthers. We were getting intelligence briefings that Manson was anti-black and he had supposedly killed a Black Panther, the body of which could not be found, and the department thought that he was going to launch an attack on the Black Panthers.
What if Guillory was wrong? What if they were not waiting for Charlie to attack the BPs, but were waiting for Charlie to commit a horrendous crime to blame on the Black Panthers? Wouldn't that have been even better? A lot of sympathizers on the left and in the media were by late 1969 starting to ask if the Government was purposely targeting the Panthers for destruction, and that may have started to embarrass the FBI and the Nixon Administration. So along comes Charlie, ready to provide the G with all the cover they need. What better rationale to wipe out the Panthers than if they had committed the heinous Tate murders? There would have been NO public sympathy left for them if they were made to take the rap! Evaluate TLB in that light.
So where did the plan go wrong? Were the messages in blood not explicit enough in pointing to the Panthers? Did someone high up point out that no one would buy into this crazy scenario? Or did Sadie put a clog in it by spilling the beans prematurely and thereby redirecting attention to Charlie?
the 2nd Tate Police investigation report:
"On 9-8-69, an appointment was made by Kate Saxton, aka Baird, Pegrum, and Marilyn Kirk to talk with Sergeant Calkins at Parker Center ... Kate Baird is from England and had been an actress in that country for a number of years. She was married to a male Negro by the name of Harry Fredericks Patterson Baird, an American.... According to Kate Saxton, Harry Baird is a close friend of Mohammed Ali and ex-pro football player, Jim Brown. All three of the individuals are active in a black power movement which encompasses both England and the USA. ... She is convinced that the homicides were a means of the black power movement in this country to show their force and strength. ...Saxton states that her ex-husband knew about the murders "almost as soon as they happened." "
The interviewer doesn't state it, but it is implied that she got this theory from her husband. IF Baird got this theory from Ali, then we asked how did The Champ know this? Ali, of course, was part of the NOI from about 1961 to 1975. The obvious implication is that others high up in the NOI told him this. Which means that the people that counted in the NOI thought(or knew) Tate/LaBianca were the doings of "the black power movement." Thus the NOI was another group that seemed to have knowledge of Charlie's version of Helter Skelter.
"My contention is this--the reason Manson was left on the street was because our department thought that he was going to attack the Black Panthers."
If you read the Spahn Ranch documents leading up to the raid, Manson told officials he was anticipating an attack by the Black Panthers. Why did he say this? Because of Bernard Crowe. Bernard admitted to Ed Sanders (in the Ed Sanders files) that he did indeed threaten Manson with the Black Panthers.
The Myth of Helter Skelter
Chapter 6.
The House Fell.
This is when the “Crowe incident” happened.
Bernard Crowe was a black drug dealer in the San Fernando Valley. What apparently happened,
though neither I nor any of the others were privy to this at the time, was that in response to Manson’s
pressure Charles Watson had orchestrated a drug deal with Bernard Crowe. Apparently Watson
convinced Crowe to give him the drugs, leaving his fiancé behind as security. Watson apparently told
Crowe he would sell the drugs to a waiting buyer and then return immediately with the money.
But this isn’t what happened.
I should mention that Charles Watson had taken a drug concocted by boiling hallucinogenic
seeds earlier in the week and he wasn’t himself during this whole episode. He’d disappear for long
periods of time, or sit comatose for hours and have to be hand fed. I don’t know what he’d taken but I
remember it really messed him up. This may have had a very strong effect on what ended up
happening.
Another thing worth noting is that the girl wasn’t really his fiancé. He’d only just met her and
apparently he decided to abandon her and run off with the drugs. Unfortunately the girl had heard
Watson call Spahn Ranch earlier and she remembered the phone number. When Watson didn’t come
back Bernard Crowe began pressuring the girl and she gave him the number she’d seen Watson call.
Crowe called and asked for “Charles.” But Charles Watson was known as “Tex” at Spahn Ranch.
There was only one “Charles,” and that was Charles Manson. When Manson answered the phone
Crowe told him he was a Black Panther (which wasn’t true) and he knew where Manson was and if
Manson didn’t come down and give him his money he and all his Black Panther buddies were going to
make a raid at Spahn Ranch and kill everyone there.
It’s worth looking at the incident that followed – the Crowe Incident – a little closer, because it
is the true beginning of the terrible panicked spiral that led to the deaths of nine innocent people
"The interviewer doesn't state it, but it is implied that she got this theory from her husband. IF Baird got this theory from Ali, then we asked how did The Champ know this? Ali, of course, was part of the NOI from about 1961 to 1975. The obvious implication is that others high up in the NOI told him this. Which means that the people that counted in the NOI thought(or knew) Tate/LaBianca were the doings of "the black power movement." Thus the NOI was another group that seemed to have knowledge of Charlie's version of Helter Skelter."
Because the NOI infiltrated prisons converting black men to the religious belief. This went on in the prisons Manson was in. The Black Panthers originally started as a black nationalist movement/group. They were heavily inspired by Malcolm X. Malcolm X was a member of the NOI, after he left at some point later he was assassinated. Manson heard in the prisons what the NOI were teaching the black inmates, including their distaste for white people. Many members of the NOI did dress up in regalia similar to the Black Panthers. With the uprising of the Black Panthers it's easy to understand the racial divides.
Charlie's "version " of Helter Skelter is againg, very similar to the version of the race war the Fountain of the World believed.
"By the way, where exactly does she say that "some blacks would kill each other..." ? I was mistaken about that. She's said they would be there sort of helping along. Whatever to that effect.
Previously you mentioned the misspelling of Helter Skelter on the Labianca's refrigerator...that doesn't mean anything...other that Pat was a bad speller. It was also misspelled on the infamous door photographed but never used as evidence.
It is interesting. But we will have to agree to disagree about where the philosophies came from. I will say that Venta must have read Marx as the Communist Party believes that there would be a revolution and it would have to start with the blacks
One final thing about the "Free Bobby" biz
Bill Vance was re-interviewed by Ed Sanders team in 1972. He acknowledged that money was indeed owed. But he thought it was for songs Charlie sold Hinman.
(V) Is Bill Vance
End of page 24 and top of page 25
"L: Where would it come from?
V: He sold music. Dennis Wilson owes him something like about five thousand dollars right now.
L: Really?
V: In music… unless he’s paid him since he’s been locked up you know and I don’t …
… think he has – he’s ( … ) it to him for several months out here about paying him. And he sold music to that guy out in Topanga Canyon. ✻
L: Who was that? Hinman?
V: Hinman. Of which the guy still owes him money for. Of course he’s not in any position to pay him now. But he did owe him money for it."
James D. The Manson Archives said:
your lack of acknowledging what the NOI doctrine is, shows you haven't studied it and looking at NOI members creating racially motivated murders several years after the TLB murders and how they teach white people should be eradicated. Manson definitely heard these teachings in jail
Ooh.....the one black person you should not say that to is me. My own wife was part of one of those groups back in the 90s. We've been married now for 28 years. 👫🏾
We do talk, you know.
And I've been locking horns with the NOI and their ilk long before this website ever existed.
If you can find one place where I ever even intimated that Manson did not hear some of what ended up in his teachings from the Black Muslims, let me know. And also let me know the true identity of the doppelgänger, 🎅🏿because it certainly wasn't me. I have always made the case that he got his eventual brainchild from a variety of sources, and that LSD tied the whole thing together in his head.
You could also avail yourself of my comments in this thread.
It pays to know what's in the archives, baby. 🧑🏼🍼
starviego said:
the 2nd Tate Police investigation report:
"On 9-8-69, an appointment was made by Kate Saxton, aka Baird, Pegrum, and Marilyn Kirk to talk with Sergeant Calkins at Parker Center ... Kate Baird is from England and had been an actress in that country for a number of years. She was married to a male Negro by the name of Harry Fredericks Patterson Baird, an American....
Kate the drunken dame....
Star, this is old hat. You are rehashing information that we discussed in detail 8 or so years ago.
"Star, this is old hat. You are rehashing information that we discussed in detail 8 or so years ago. "
Yes, it is. But probably many of our newer viewers were not previously aware of it.
It should be noted that the Vance interview gives credibility to Stephanie Schramm on December 4, 1969
DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you ever go to Dennis' house? Who else was at Dennis' house?
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Just me and Charlie went there.
DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you recall when that was?
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um, yeah, I think I could put it together. It was about a week after those two girls got picked up because he wanted some money to get them out of jail.
DEPUTY GLEASON: If was just before the raid then?
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.
DEPUTY GLEASON: Just before the Spahn Ranch raid?
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No just after, I think, because I was staying at the ranch not down in the canyon.
DEPUTY GLEASON: Did Charlie think that Dennis would give him money?
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, I guess he did a record a long time ago and he wanted to see if there were any royalties left on it or something; but he no, he didn't give him any.
DEPUTY GLEASON: But Dennis was home though?
STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.
And last but not least, as far as Ronni Howard goes, she described many discrepancies in the story Susan told her including putting Manson at the scene which was obviously not true and incorrect about the inlay of the house.
James D.,
What are the Ed Sanders files and how can I access them?
They are at Princeton University, and I think you have to go there personally if you want to see them.
Thank you, Star. I guess I'll have to miss them.
James D.,
What are the Ed Sanders files and how can I access them?
They are all the files that Ed Sanders had while working on the family and going to the trials. They include numerous important interviews.
you have to physically go there and take photographs, or you have to pay attention to the college bulletin board and hire someone to do it for you and that does get costly. Here is the link to all of the Manson related stuff with the box numbers.
https://findingaids.princeton.edu/catalog/C1703_c62672-64047
James D The Manson Archives wrote:
This is when the “Crowe incident” happened.
Bernard Crowe was a black drug dealer in the San Fernando Valley. What apparently happened, though neither I nor any of the others were privy to this at the time, was that in response to Manson’s pressure. Charles Watson had orchestrated a drug deal with Bernard Crowe. Apparently Watson convinced Crowe to give him the drugs, leaving his fiancé behind as security. Watson apparently told Crowe he would sell the drugs to a waiting buyer and then return immediately with the money. But this isn’t what happened.
I should mention that Charles Watson had taken a drug concocted by boiling hallucinogenic seeds earlier in the week and he wasn’t himself during this whole episode. He’d disappear for long periods of time, or sit comatose for hours and have to be hand fed. I don’t know what he’d taken but I remember it really messed him up. This may have had a very strong effect on what ended up happening.
This is why I never read this book. Susan is clueless. The Crowe ripoff was around July 1st, 1969. Tex's misadventures with the root Datura Innoxia, AKA toloache were in late April. His infamous mug shot and death row fingerprint came from his arrest for this episode, on April 23, 1969, and had zero to do with his behavior two months later for the Crowe incident.
BTW, Tex turns 80 today.
I totally agree, Sixties. Manson cribbed a huge portion of Krishna Venta's Armageddon vision for his HS trip. I wish there had been more documentation of Manson's interfacing with FOTW. After the murders the FOTW folks pretty much clammed up about the Family visits. Paul Watkins mentions some incidents in his book. Supposedly one of the reasons Shorty Shea was murdered was that hew badmouthed the Manson clan to the FOTW.
Thank you James,
Photographing and emailing files sounds like a good business for a student to have.
I just used her account of events concerning the threat. It was what I had right off hand and not have to dig through transcripts for example from Gypsy when working on making Manson...and transcripts of conversations Cappy had talked about it. And Bernard did admit to Ed Sanders that he did threaten Charlie... And that he did not want to testify against him. But Aaron Stovitz was offering him the best medical care, and Crowe was also looking for some money, and reading those interviews, we can see that he was looking for money for a book or a film... The fact that Crowe admitted to the threat gives credence.
Concerning that plant. There is a letter from Paul Fitzgerald's office and I will copy and paste it and post it here that is in the Ed Sanders file where he interviewed Leslie and Patricia. Both eventually said that they were scared of Watson when he was on his trips because he was basically capable of anything.
Ps. Watson doesn't deserve a Happy birthday
This link should work for the letter ..
https://imgur.com/a/B1THLu4
James D, many thanks for the link to the Fitzgerald letter. It reminds me of a statement by Susan Atkins, where she said she was frightened or disturbed by the tone of voice Tex used at Cielo. Of course, the validity of her statement may be difficult to prove.
If Patricia and Leslie were scared of him when he was on his drugs of choice...Susan may have been as well. Let's not forget he also got "huffy" with Linda according to her when they got back to the car.
I don't think it's feasible that she would lie about that.
Yes thanks for that link; that was interesting. According to Susan, Tex was leaping around like a zoo monkey at Cielo, excitedly anticipating the ensuing carnage. Also I believe in Sanders book "The Family" there is an anecdote about Cappy Gillies leaving the ranch for a day, and on returning the next day, she was told by Tex "don't ever leave this ranch without telling anybody, I could easily kill you". This was a month before the murders.
He allegedly threatened Leslie Van Houten as well, told by Stephen Kay at Watson's 1978 parole hearing.
"MR. KAY: When they left the location they went to the Griffith Park area and hitchhiked back to the Spahn Ranch. They were picked up -- I think they got a couple of different rides, but they ended up back in Spahn Ranch. The last ride they got, according to the testimony, asked them if they lived at Spahn Ranch, because he dropped them off somewhere near there at the bottom of the hill. And Mr. Watson said no, that they didn't. And then when they got back to the ranch, the testimony by Miss Van Houten was that Mr. Watson told her that if she ever said anything about what they had done, that he would kill her."
Link to deep dive into the ZEBRA killings:
https://www.mansonblog.com/2016/09/charlie-black-muslims-and-zebra.html
IF the NOI were the ones to give Charlie the order, they may have only been the messengers. Just like the plot to kill Malcolm X in February of 1965 may not have ended with Elijah Muhammed:
The Assassinations by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, c.2003
pg411
"Malcolm (X) realized the overall dynamics of a police operation without being aware of the details. He said repeatedly during his final week that he knew the Nation of Islam was full of police. ... Because he knew the NOI was riddled with agents, Malcolm understood that it was their controllers who really held the keys to his life.
"Malcolm: "Don't you think that anything is going down that [the police] don't know about? The only thing that goes down is what they want to go down, and what they don't want to go down they don't let go down."
"Malcolm realized, as he said to Alex Haley, that the NOI was now serving as a proxy, much like how the CIA used the Mafia as their go-between in the attempted killing of Castro and furnished plausible deniability and a showy scapegoat. In what appears to have been a COINTELPRO or perhaps joint FBI-CIA operation, the Nation of Islam was being used as a religious Mafia."
---------------------
And if that was true in 1965, you can bet it would be just as true in 1969.
Hello to all,
When asked about Charlie Manson and the horrible crimes he instigated, John Lennon said "he's balmy" (crazy).
To paraphrase Malcolm X, after his pilgrimage to Mecca, in Saudi Arabia, "I realized that there were people of all colors and nationalities that were treating all as brothers and sisters."
One day, in the Spring of 1967, I sat at a window sill, along a hallway at my high school, South High, in Denver and and a fellow walked up, sat beside me and said, "So, Fayez, "what do you think of the black Muslims in America?"
I thought for a moment and said, "well, you know, that's quite a question, lemme think."
Jeff Guinn also wrote that Leslie and Pat told him the girls were scared of Tex after the "belladonna" incident. Charlie said for Leslie, Pat and Linda to go with Tex and do what he told them to do. If they were that scared of him, it explains to me somewhat how they acted at Cielo.
Yes, thank you James D. for sharing that! Do you have other documents? Can you submit a post for this blog?
"IF the NOI were the ones to give Charlie the order, they may have only been the messengers. Just like the plot to kill Malcolm X in February of 1965 may not have ended with Elijah Muhammed:"
The NOI would have nothing to do with white people nor would they have white people do their deeds. The NOI DOES NOT intermingle with white people.
Manson heard these teachings in prison and they scared the living sh*t out of him
www.cielodrive.com/archive/manson-adjusts-to-life-in-prison/
"Convicted mass murderer Charles Manson says in a rare prison interview, “I got in trouble for going through changes, for cutting people, for shooting people — not because I wanted to, but because I was forced to.” "
Charlie says someone forced him to involve himself in murder? Who, Charlie, who? A revelation, in any case, from July of 1978.
Convicted mass murderer Charles Manson says in a rare prison interview, “I got in trouble for of going through changes, for cutting people, for shooting people — not because I wanted to, but because I was forced to.” "
Charlie says someone forced him to involve himself in murder? Who, Charlie, who? A revelation, in any case, from July of 1978."
In trying to find something that's not there...he's talking about Crowe, Hinman, and Shea. All of which was because other people involved him in their issues.
James D. The Manson Archives said:
Previously you mentioned the misspelling of Helter Skelter on the Labianca's refrigerator...that doesn't mean anything...other that Pat was a bad speller. It was also misspelled on the infamous door photographed but never used as evidence
Actually, I didn't mention Pat's misspelling on the fridge door. I mentioned what she wrote on the door. I didn't draw any attention to her spelling. However, you're right, the writing on the door that was found on the cupboard in Juan Flynn's trailer is also misspelled. It's spelled with a 'c' rather than a 'k' in the 'skelter' part. I've never noticed that before you pointed it out, so score one for you ! 🥳
I disagree with you though, that it means that Pat and Country Sue were simply bad spellers and that their writings of that specific phrase means nothing. It means that "Helter Skelter" was a phrase that they heard a lot, rather than one they saw written down. I'd say that was pretty significant.
One final thing about the "Free Bobby" biz
Bill Vance was re-interviewed by Ed Sanders team in 1972. He acknowledged that money was indeed owed. But he thought it was for songs Charlie sold Hinman
According to John Gilmour {via Bobby} back in '69/70, Gary was going to pay for some recording sessions for Charlie.
as far as Ronni Howard goes, she described many discrepancies in the story Susan told her including putting Manson at the scene which was obviously not true and incorrect about the inlay of the house
Yes, but what one has to remember is that she was recalling a conversation in hushed tones in a prison with someone who is telling her that she is responsible for a murder that has been in the news for more than 3 months, that has invited speculation of all kinds. She's not going to be interested in the extracurricular gumph - and history has tended to show that there are many who walk that line too, with not listening or taking it seriously.
She is the one that made the mistakes regarding some of the details of what happened. There are lots of little and big details she does not remember or doesn't recall with clarity. She recalls the Shorty story of having his head cut off ~ but everyone believed that until 1977. She is the one that assumed that the Charlie mentioned was Charlie Manson. There isn't anything in the interview {or Virginia Graham's, for that matter} that is not understandable for a first interview retelling what they had picked up. Helter Skelter didn't interest them and neither understood it - but they knew its importance to Susan Atkins.
That's easy to say... considering the defense rested after the prosecution and they didn't get to testify until the P. Phase of the trial
Of course it's easy to say. The truth usually is.
The defence rested. But if you read the trial transcript, there is a large chunk taken up with what happened when the defence rested. And it is abundantly clear that as far as the Judge was concerned, the women had a constitutional right to testify. A right that overruled whatever their lawyers decided. And there was a lot of to-ing and fro-ing, but in the end it was Manson that told them that they didn't have to testify, after he "testified." So when he said over the next 46 years that he never got a chance to put his case, he was talking utter shit, the kind I'd like to put on my plants and veg to make them grow, and grow more.
During the penalty phase, the Judge noted that it was obvious to him that the defendants had put on the guilt phase defence in the penalty phase. And you know what ? The same result would still have accrued.
and was a story they continued to stick with thereafter
Until it was time to start being truthful ! Even Bobby had to call it a day with that nonsense by 1998.
Gorodish said:
This is why I never read this book. Susan is clueless
I don't even think it was written by Susan. It's written in such a strange semi-first, semi-third person way. But more importantly, it is full of holes. It makes a leaking bucket look safer than a space rocket. If I had a £ for every mistake or contradiction in it, I wouldn't have to work for 10 months !
I'm actually surprised that such a travesty was ever put out for people to read. It does Charles Manson no favours, it does Susan Atkins no good, and it places the anti-prosecution/Bugliosi fraternity very firmly on the kind of quicksand that they are not going to escape from...
That all said, Susan Atkins was clueless.
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