Monday, March 9, 2015

Gary Hinman was murdered for money!

As we all know, Mr. Bobby Beausoleil is coming up for another parole hearing this month. He was on the schedule for February 19th, but it was postponed due to a rules infraction that is currently being investigated. His last one, which was in 2010 didn't go so smoothly from what I read in the hearing transcript. With that being said, I would like to go over a few things that I think are important in this case. Things that I am almost 100% are going to be addressed in his upcoming parole consideration hearing. As you all know, Mr. Beausoleil has, over the years concocted so many different versions of what happened when he murdered Gary Hinman, that it is almost impossible to pinpoint when he is telling the truth. Here are a few examples of his ever changing versions over the years:
  • Manson killed Hinman
  • Manson didn't kill Hinman
  • Bruce Davis AND Danny DeCarlo drove him and the girls over to Gary's 
  • Mary Brunner was a lover of Gary Hinman
  • Danny DeCarlo's girlfriend was Susan Atkins
  • Manson did NOT order him to kill Hinman
  • Bobby himself inflicted the wound on Hinman
  • Manson did not appear at Gary's house at all
  • Manson took Bobby for a ride in a truck and threatened his life if he told
  • Danny DeCarlo was a participant in the events that led to Gary Hinman's death
  • Gary Hinman was involved with radicals from UCLA
  •  He wanted to be invited to the 10 year anniversary party for the Straight Satans and he went as a go-between for them and Gary
The list goes on & on. It's mind-boggling how much the story changes from year to year. What I haven't been able to figure out is this: Why is Bobby Beausoleil and Bobby Beausoleil alone the only one claiming this crime happened because of a drug deal? Why wouldn't his co-defendants say it was over a drug deal? Why would they not know? Why on earth would they be hiding the fact that it was a drug deal thing? We can sit here all day long going back & forth debating whether Danny DeCarlo & other witnesses were lying, because they had something to lose, if caught, but it still wouldn't make sense for Ella, Mary, Susan, and even Bruce Davis to be lying about the reasons behind the murder. Hell, they all admitted Gary was murdered, because they wanted his money, property, stocks & bonds, or anything else of value. This was a definite pattern of Manson & Family. Whatever is yours is mine, whatever is mine is mine!

For instance, when Ella Jo Bailey was interviewed by police,
she had this to say:

"Everyone talked about Hinman. It was all planned. Me and Bill were the only ones there that saw Mary and Sadie when they got back from Gary's house. Then me, Bill & Bob went on an errand after the murder and talked about it. I remember it clear, because Bob was really upset. He was quiet and to himself. I also talked to Bruce about it. I wanted to hear what happened from everyone, because I was closer to Gary than anyone else, but I don't feel responsible for what happened. I left the ranch, because I was scared. There was no benefit from Gary's death. That was hard to understand! There were so many guns around. It wasn't the same scene that had happened for a year, year & a half that I lived with them. I'm sure each of us saw changes coming down. I saw Charlie hit some of the girls at various times for some little thing that wouldn't be important to anybody else, but to him was important. I didn't want to be hit. I don't want to be hit, and I certainly don't want to be killed. I didn't want any more to do with it. Bill certainly didn't want to get involved. I was afraid that eventually Charlie would say, "okay, you didn't go to the Hinman murder, but it's time that you accomplish what everyone else has done." Bill told me that Charlie had directly spoken to him, and told him that other scams were planned. They were gonna try to get money from some casino just over the hill in Simi. There was talk that there was gonna be more & more of these things. The girls had gone on capers. I didn't want to." Bobby had also told Ella that they were supposed to drive the car out of LA county, into Santa Barbara so they could get some money for it. If that was the case, I thought the Straight Satans wanted their money back and sold the car to recoup their loses.


Then we have Bruce Davis's testimony from this 2012 parole hearings: 

Davis stated, 'What I did understand was that they went there to rob
Gary Hinman. They thought that he had money, but he didn't."

"The gun was mine. That's the one that I received the federal firearms
charge for buying it with a false identification."

"I was present when the planning to rob Mr. Hinman went on and I drove."

"And when I was asked to drive, I did. So I drove my co-defendants to
Gary's home. I later pointed my pistol at Gary in an attempt to rob
him."

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER FERGUSON: "So the motive for Gary Hinman being
basically tortured and murdered, that was for robbery?"

INMATE DAVIS: "Yes, it was."

From Danny DeCarlo's police interview:

"Now, he said he was hung up on this little girl up there. He said that's one of the reasons why, he was trying to get her, to leave the ranch with him. But, Charlie was his god. Whatever Charlie did, he did. Whatever Charlie thinked, he thinked. It was this tight, ya know?" 

The first thing I ever heard about Gary Hinman was that he had 20 grand.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Who told you this?

Danny DeCarlo: Charlie, he told me this. He had $20,000 and they were going to go out there and get the money off of him. Now, they, this is, they were talking about this for probably weeks-the Gary Hinman's money. According-they both knew Gary, from prior contact with Gary. Alright, he had 20 grand. Where he got this money, I don't know? If he had 20 grand, I don't know? They just said it was $20,000 that they were gonna get. So, they have to talk somebody out of it. So they're gonna talk it out of Gary Hinman. So, they sent Bobby, they sent Sadie and they sent Mary.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Do you know where Gary's house is?

Danny DeCarlo: Not the slightest idea.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Okay

Danny DeCarlo: Okay, now I am telling you, what he told me, when he came back, I'll run it down to you.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: He?

Danny DeCarlo: He is Bobby Beausoleil.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Okay

Danny DeCarlo: Right from the horse's mouth. Now, this is when he came back. And a little bit, what Charlie told me, from when they got there. Now, when they left, I don't know. When they came back, I don't know. What they left in, I don't know. I'm only telling you what he told me when he came back. And that's where I'm gonna start, when he came back. Okay, I was in the end bunkhouse, on the ranch, Right, he came back and uh, I says-he was telling me about, uh, he had stabbed Gary Hinman. He says, "and I got the mutherfucker" "I killed him." He says, "it's pretty weird, I never killed anyone before in my life." And he had a little knife that he carried with him. A little Bowie knife-a Mexican, Bowie knife. A Mexican, a Bowie with a blade that comes up like this and down like this and under, fancy handle, fancy engraving on the handle. You people have it.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: How do you know that?

Danny DeCarlo: Cus he carried it constantly on his hip.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Mmm hmmm.

Danny DeCarlo: On a sheath. When he got busted up there in San Luis Obispo in that little Toyota, he had that knife on him. He was supposed to take that Toyota out of town.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Let me ask you something.

Danny DeCarlo: Okay

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: How do you know he had the knife on him?

Danny DeCarlo: Cause he never parted with it.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Okay

Danny DeCarlo: When he did it-Bobbie, Charlie told him to get rid of the knife, he never did. He didn't want to get rid of the knife, because he loved it. That's why he kept it with him. So, when he got arrested up in San Luis Obispo, he had the knife on him, right? He had the knife? Didn't your crime lab check that knife and it came back clean? Well, that was the knife that did it. I almost chocked when I heard that.

Sgt. Paul Whiteley: Well now, not that our crime lab came back clean, but we have, we did test the knife.

Danny DeCarlo: Yeah, well he, he called the ranch while he was in jail and said, yeah the crime lab came back, and he said the knife, wasn't the knife that did it. 

Unidentified voice: That isn't true.

Danny DeCarlo: Well, that's what he said.




From Susan Atkins last known manuscript "The Myth of Helter Skelter":It should also be mentioned that the reason why Charles Manson couldn't find anyone in all of Los Angeles who was willing to loan or give him enough money to flee, or to put him up for awhile until the heat died down, was because by the summer of 1969, Charles Manson had abused the friendship of everyone who’d ever tried to help him. He’d robbed some of these people, stolen from others, threatened others when they didn't give him what he wanted, and shamelessly lived off others until he’d abused his welcome everywhere. No one who had anything worth taking wanted him anywhere near them.Finally the men at the meeting were reduced to grabbing at the faintest of straws. Bobby Beausoleil thought he remembered someone saying a friend of the Family’s, a music teacher named Gary Hinman, had inherited $20,000. This didn't seem very likely to me. Gary lived in a little place down Topanga Canyon – nothing fancy. But that’s all they could come up with.Charles Manson said that Hinman was practically part of the Family – or at least he could be convinced to join the Family. If he joined the Family he could be expected to turn his inheritance over. Since this was all they could come up with they decided to try it. 

(Note: Susan Atkins conveniently forgot to mention in her manuscript that they were ALL THERE during the planning stage of taking money from Gary. Remember what Ella Jo Bailey said?)

From Kitty Lutesinger's arrest report (10/13/69):
Subject Lutesinger was transported to the San Dimas Sheriff's Station and during questioning she stated that she had not been at the Hinman home and had never been there. Subject Lutesinger then stated that she had heard a story that above suspects Beausoleil and Atkins had been told by Charles Manson they were to go the Hinman residence and take money from him. Subject Lutesinger added that she heard that a fight had ensued and that Mr. Hinman had been killed. Subject Lutesinger also added that she left the Spahn Ranch approximately 8-1-69 and, that about one week prior to that she had observed both of Hinman's cars at the ranch. Subject Lutesinger stated that the above S/Atkins had also told her and other girls at the ranch that she had been in a fight with a man who pulled her hair; that she had stabbed him 3 or 4 times. As part of this information was consistent with some of the facts given to the undersigned by D/Beausoleil, the undersigned returned to Inyo County Sheriff's Department where we spoke with S/Atkins.




From Mary Brunner's statement (12/4/69):

The police asked her, "who did you go up there with?" Her answer, "With Bobby and Sadie." How did you get there? "I think it was Bruce who drove us up there."

"Then Bobby came up and we just talked for a while and then Bobby told Gary that we needed some money and Gary said he didn't have any and then jabber, jabber, and then Bobby took the gun out and said that, you know, we weren't kidding, we really do need some money and then, they got to fighting over it and Gary got hit with the gun."


From police report concerning Gary Hinman vehicle:

Louis Puttek was interviewed by District Attorney of Los Angeles (01/20/70):
Mr. Puttek states that he purchased the 1958 Volkwagon van, that formerly belonged to Gary Hinman from Mark Aaronson. Mr. Puttek stated that he was told after his arrest on October 8, 1969, that Mark Aaronson had been given the bus on the ranch by CHARLES MANSON. He stated that he never worried about title to the bus, because he was given the pink slip, and it was signed and dated by Gary Hinman. He stated that he altered the date to avoid paying penalties to the Department of Motor Vehicles. (Note: Again, if this was a Straight Satans thing, why the hell was the bus GIVEN to someone by Manson? Beausoleil claims nobody knew about the deal with the Straight Satans.)



As much as I think the Los Angeles deputy DA is a complete ass, he summed it up nicely when he said this:

With regards to the commitment offense, and actually, with regards to much of this inmate's attitude towards not only his prison disciplinaries, but almost anything regarding his life, I would conclude that he is a pathological liar. He has told so many different versions of his involvement in this crime that it's almost beyond belief. Today we hear now a new and different version of his crime, which has differed from his previous statements. His statements have gone from he didn't kill Mr. Hinman, that he was in the other room when it happened, to Manson did it, Manson didn't do it, Manson was involved, Manson wasn't involved. I mean, you could go on and on regarding all of his different versions of the offense. Today's version is somewhat of a new deviation from his previous assertion that the motivation for Mr. Beausoleil going to Mr. Hinman's house was to collect money on a drug debt. I think previous statements from this inmate were that he had bought some mescaline from Mr. Hinman, and it turned out -- and he then, in turn, sold it to the Straight Satan's, it turned out to be laced with strychnine. The Straight Satan's were mad at Mr. Beausoleil, so Mr. Beausoleil went to confront Mr. Hinman regarding the bad drugs that Mr. Hinman sold to Mr. Beausoleil. The problem with this theory is, and this previous story, which is different from today's version, is that there is no indication in any of the records, in any of the physical evidence, or any of the statements of the witnesses, that Mr. Hinman was in any way even a drug dealer. According to Mr. Beausoleil, Hinman manufactured the drugs at his house, at his residence. There's nothing in any of the police reports, there's nothing in any of the evidence from the crime scene that indicates that Mr. Hinman manufactured drugs at all. Furthermore, there is no evidence from any of this inmate's crime partners that Hinman was involved in any kind of a bad drug deal between himself, the Straight Satan's, or Mr. Beausoleil. This is all a flat-out lie. In fact, Mr. Hinman's deceased crime partner, Susan Atkins, testified at her own parole hearing on Tuesday, December 31st of 1985, and this was at CIW, and I have the transcript in front of me, and I'm looking at pages 59 and 60 of that December 31st, 1985 transcript where she was asked a few questions by Board member -- actually, two different Board members"Did you at any time, did you think that Robert Beausoleil was there to collect money on a drug deal?" Inmate Atkins: "No, Sir." This fantasy that inmate Beausoleil concocts is a way of minimizing not only his involvement in the crime, but also of shifting some of the blame to Mr. Hinman. In other words, it was Mr. Hinman's fault that he sold some bad drugs, and that's what caused this whole confrontation to occur. It was Mr. Hinman's fault that he threatened to go to the police after his face had been slashed, that caused him to be killed by Robert Beausoleil. That is absolutely incorrect, it is not true, and Mr. Beausoleil to this day continues to lie and deny, and to make up new stories about his involvement with the crime. This was a planned attack and extortion. Bruce Davis drove Bobby Beausoleil and the girls to the house. The girls knew Hinman. They were to enter the house first to see if Mr. Hinman was with anyone. If Mr. Hinman wasn't with anyone, they were to make a signal, and after they made that signal, Bobby Beausoleil then entered the house with the gun. They kept him hostage. Despite what Mr. Beausoleil says about not preventing him from leaving, it's absolutely clear that they did. He struck Mr. Hinman over the head with the gun. In fact, by his own admission, he says that the gun was damaged. At least, that's what Bruce Davis says, that the gun was damaged. Mr. Beausoleil makes out that he's somehow a pawn in all this, that he was given instructions on how to go collect the money, that it was Bruce Davis and Danny DeCarlo that told him how to use the gun and how to threaten the victim, and this was absolutely incredible, and it's absolutely unbelievable. He continues to minimize his behavior by saying, this was all Charlie's fault, and none of it makes absolutely any sense whatsoever. According to Mr. Beausoleil's latest version, he was just there to collect some money, that he really didn't tell the girls, despite all the evidence to the contrary, because all the girls and everyone else indicates that the reason that all of them went to Gary Hinman's house was because they believed he came into an inheritance, and they wanted to acquire that inheritance as part of the Family funds. So, Mr. Beausoleil is flat-out lying. His version is completely different from all of his crime partners', and all the evidence in this case projects. His version makes absolutely no sense too, because if he were there to collect on the drug debt, why is Manson involved? Why does Manson come over? His explanation is, Manson was worried that his girls might have been in danger. They were never in any danger. There was a struggle with the gun, a gunshot went off, Beausoleil retained possession of the gun. If he hadn't retained possession of the gun, Hinman may still be alive today. He may have fled, he may have shot his assailants. But the point is, is that Beausoleil was always in control. The reason Manson was called over to the house was because Hinman didn't have the money, or wasn't giving up the money, so the purpose for Manson and Davis to return was to further threaten Hinman to pay up or turn over the pink slips to the car. This is logical, this is what all the evidence shows, and this is in direct contradiction to what Mr. Beausoleil is trying to tell this Panel today. And Mr. Beausoleil, he can't -- well, he can't keep his story straight.





We can probably gather that a lot of the witnesses, and co-defendants minimized their involvement in this tragic case, simply because they didn't want to get charged as some sort of accessory, or get involved any more than they already were. Could we say that Ella Jo was involved? Sure. She is the one who suggested Gary in the first place. We could also say that Danny was involved somewhat too. Danny was there, getting drunk & feeling up Ouisch & Simi Valley Sherry probably while they were in Devil's canyon, sitting around a campfire & brainstorming on how to procure desperately needed funds for dune buggies, food, equipment, drugs, tools, etc. He heard the planning! Danny didn't claim to be an angel. He was a piece of shit, but that doesn't mean he put Bobby up to going over to Gary's and getting the money back on some sort of bum drug deal. Remember, everyone was desperately trying to think of a way to get the money necessary to move to the desert. They even talked about kidnapping Terry Melcher and holding him for ransom. Do I think Gary Hinman was murdered because of a drug deal, or bad mescaline? Absolutely not. I never have. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that Gary ripped Bobby Beausoleil off, or gave him mescaline with strychnine. I have known many outlaw bikers for many years now and I can guarantee you this: They would NEVER, EVER have to send some punk over to a drug dealers house to get a refund of their money. Outlaw motorcycle groups have people on their "team" that have no problem collecting on a debt or getting a refund. It's preposterous to even think that they would rely on a 21-year old punk to go collect, even back in 1969. As for the drugs, Gary might have done a little experimenting with drugs for a spell, and his family admitted that he had been in a recovery group for drug addiction, but that doesn't mean he sold Bobby Beausoleil a bad batch. It was the late 60's in Topanga Canyon. Who didn't do drugs in that area back then? Bobby Beausoleil, in my opinion is desperately trying to minimize his involvement in this cowardly murder by putting some of the blame on his victim and the rest on Charles Manson and even Danny DeCarlo. Do I think this man would be a danger to society if released. No, I do not, but I am not the one he has to convince. Inconceivable!!





83 comments:

Mr. Humphrat said...

Good stuff Ann thanks.

Robert Hendrickson said...

I don't want to detract from the subject of Ann's expose here, BUT yesterday marked the 50th anniversary of the landing of America's FIRST 3,500 Marine combat troops in South Vietnam. Thus, that day was a kind-of beginning of the 1960s as many of us were affected by it. A few months later, I was drafted into the U.S. Army.

In March of 1967 Charles Manson was released from prison and a "few" months later I was released from the Army. He raised a Family that many believe ENDED the 1960s. I helped record the relevant historical events which ultimately made movie stars out of several key players. The "Three Girls with Guns" film scene is now the "trademark" for a generation.

So where does Bobby B. actually fit into the above mentioned scenario ? Which round hole does this square peg fit into ?

Matt said...

Very nice job, AustinAnn! You did an amazing job of using various first-hand sources to make your point. Your angry edge is effective and entertaining as always. Bravo...

George Stimson said...

I'd like to know more about Mark Aaronson (the receiver of Hinman's VW bus).

Cielodrive.com said...

Louis Puttek's sister was dating a gun that went to high school with Mark at Westchester. That's how Louis became aware the van was for sale, and for a price he couldn't pass up. Louis told me, that to his knowledge, Mark wasn't a member of the Straight Satans. Mark overdosed in a car in Manhattan Beach in the early 90's

Cielodrive.com said...

A few pictures of Mark and his family are here

http://www.fortlangley.ca/pepin/TootsKids.html

Matt said...

Thank you, Cielo. Nice find.

Cielodrive.com said...

No problem. BTW, I meant to say guy not gun. opps

St Circumstance said...

Ann- this is really an incredible post. Great job of using such a great variety of sources to support your ( you're?) point. I really enjoyed reading this very much.

It is my opinion that Bobby settled on sticking to the drug theory because it made Gary less sympathetic personally, The crime less of an outrage publicly,and I also think Bobby felt that if he could create a mental picture in the parole boards eyes that he feared for his own life from the big bad bikers- it would make it more understandable that he was forced to chose " him or me" when he had to keep repeating the story...

Again- I think this was a really great job Ann :)

St Circumstance said...

Stuck to the drug excuse not theory- sorry :)

AustinAnn74 said...

Thank you, everyone! Ya know, this posting is extremely disturbing to me. Bobby Beausoleil has been in prison longer than I have been alive. That is a long time. He made a horrible choice and it has cost him his whole life. Will the board ever give him a date? If he keeps doing the same thing he's been doing, the answer is probably no. He is like the little boy who cried wolf. Nobody, except his supporters believe him anymore. The same thing we just read about in my posting has been read by the parole board too. Witness statements, testimony and even Bobby's own statements in the past have all played a crucial part in him not getting a date, simply because his version/versions don't add up. It simply doesn't make any sense what he says. It is sad too when you see people calling Gary Hinman a drug dealer. Gary Hinman isn't here to defend himself. He has no way to dispute that claim from the grave. BB not only killed the poor guy, but has also tarnished his memory by putting some of the blame on Gary himself. That indicates to me that he really doesn't give a shit about the life he took. It's like he is mad at Gary, because he has had to spend almost his whole life living in a controlled environment with guards telling him what to do 24/7. It must suck horribly for a creative individual like that! But, I've said it numerous times and I will say it again. Bobby Beausoleil feels that the true victim in this whole case is himself. His statements at parole hearings have made me cringe, because it is so asinine & obnoxious. So many things add up that are against him. I just don't see him ever being released. He has shown a complete lack of judgement in several areas, including that stupid mail order spanking bullshit, which was really creepy. Then, he gets drug tested and comes out positive for dope in 1999. That's another strike! Then, all the different stories he has told concerning the crime. Lastly, he sort of argues with the board members and ignores simple instructions, while diverting questions. He comes across as being extremely arrogant. Do I think he is a danger to society? No, I don't, but he isn't going to be released ever, simply because of his actions. In his early days of incarceration, he requested he be housed with Manson too, then, we have, of course, the infamous Truman Capote interview, which he denies he ever did. Things like that add up. His past statements are coming back to bite him in the ass.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I had pretty much bought into the drug dealer/Straight Satan's scenario. I'm glad to see more weight given again to the getting money for the family motive.

Robert Hendrickson said...

Just heard on the NEWS - the MOB was moving into Austin - till they realized Austin Ann may put them on her HIT list !!

George Stimson said...

"Louis told me, that to his knowledge, Mark wasn't a member of the Straight Satans."

"To his knowledge." Is it known whether Mark associated with them? And does it strike anyone as odd that after going to all the trouble (murder) to acquire Hinman's possessions Manson would simply give the bus away?
It would be interesting to get a complete and accurate timeline of all of the post-murder bus transfers.

AustinAnn74 said...

LOL!

AustinAnn74 said...

There can be hundreds of odd things & coincidences that seem weird or don't add up, but one, simple thing never changes: Gary Hinman is dead & buried in a cemetery.

Cielodrive.com said...

Awhile back I passed along the photo of Mark to a guy that is making a documentary on the SS. I asked him to show it to some of the guys to see if they recognized him. I've yet to hear back though.

Regarding the van, Mark reportedly sold it to Puttek in mid August.

AustinAnn74 said...

Cielo, I forgot to thank you for the documents & recordings I used as a source for this posting. You go above & beyond to make these historical documents & recordings available. Thank you so much!!

Cielodrive.com said...

You're always welcome Ann. Glad to see that stuff put to use. Nice job

mrgroove said...

Excellent work AustinAnn!!! You proved to me one critical thing about Beausoleil. He lies and he can't keep his lies straight.

AustinAnn74 said...

Thanks, groove! Glad you enjoyed reading it. Cielo, don't know what I would do without your excellent site to reference back to. It' the encyclopedia of Manson blogs!

AustinAnn74 said...

Oh, Mr. H, if I have ever forgot to tell you: thank you for your service and thank you for "Manson." Your work on that film will be preserved for generations in the future!

Doc Sierra said...

George Stimson said...
It would be interesting to get a complete and accurate timeline of all of the post-murder bus transfers.
-----------------------------------
Not possible. Bus transfers are only good for 2 hours.....

Doc Sierra said...

Cielodrive.com said...

Awhile back I passed along the photo of Mark to a guy that is making a documentary on the SS.
----------------------------------
Hi Cielo, please keep us posted on this documentary. It's certainly an interesting subject and as a former 1% club patch holder I'd be especially interested.
Thanks.....

ColScott said...

I must say with all sincerity that this post has inspired me and rejuvenated me to a level that I didn't think possible. The ONLY Official TLB Blog has been dead for a long ass time mostly because I didn't have anything to say. Every day there is less and less chance that new facts will come out and without them there is no point to blogging IMO. Cielodrive and TruthTLB all have the past covered well and you guys and the Tard Blog have the present accounted for. All of Tom O'Neil's original research must not mean all that because we never saw it published. And no one else is doing any original research. I was inspired a little bit lately to buy George's book since I am interested to see what he writes- the book report is interesting although mostly expected.
But this article really is sensational because it reminded me of when I was doing original research. For two plus years (quite a bit ago) Bobby called me and my wife every Tues afternoon. Never for less than an hour often for two hours. He was working with us on a film project. He was providing his feedback and input. At that time we got to know him, met Barbara, even met Jene. Went to his art opening. Bought the vest the girls were making for him on the street corner, paid a lot for it.
I felt so strongly for him that I offered him a position (it got mentioned in a parole hearing) - a place to work if he ever got out.

He was always looking for a handout (Bummer Bob!) and his notes on the script were "of course" making it more about him.

But I read this excellent presentation and I thought about all the endless conversations and realize that the simple solution is correct (with a slight adjustment Austin Ann) He did it to be cool . Yes for the money but not for the money personally, but for the acceptance into the group and acceptance by Charlie. He was an insecure kid looking for Daddy in Anger, In Manson, in whomever he could find.
It wasn't a drug deal, it was ego.

Cool Story Bro.

mrgroove said...

So I take it, ColScott, that Bobby wanted to be considered a "badass" or get real street cred in his circle as well as some cash. This makes the most sense.

What a maroon!

Matt said...

Thank you for the kind words, Col. I've always told AutinAnn that I wish she had more time to devote. When she is in the zone, entire civilizations crumble. It doesn't hurt that she's always had a hard-on for Beausoleil. Remember Sassy Bottoms???


Panamint Patty said...

wait did he say 'THE vest?" He's just joshin us, right?

ColScott said...

There are two vests. The one for Charlie is no more. The one that you see the girls actually making on the street corner in one of the videos our departed via overdose Icelandic friend posted on youtube is the one they made for Bobby. It is unfinished. He started to have Barbara finish it and we flipped the fuck out and stopped that. But no joshing it is pretty amazing. It's on the cover of Family Jams cd too iirc

Panamint Patty said...

Colonel, thats pretty darned sweet!

AustinAnn74 said...

Thank you, everyone. Col, your comment, when read, almost made me fall off a treadmill. Seriously. I do so appreciate & respect your point of view!

ColScott said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColScott said...

No problem Ann it's pretty great work. BB didn't have strong parenting. He was pretty and could manipulate well. That's how he got by. But he wanted the respect that Charlie had. I don't even get the idea that he was bisexual. I think he slept with whatever was good for him that day be it Ken Anger or Gail or Kitty. I think he was a lost stupid soul in a lost stupid time who fucked up huge

AustinAnn74 said...

I agree with your assessment completely. Something made him into the person he became. Childhood is the mold that shapes all of us.

Michael Hloušek-Nagle said...

AustinAnn, a superb article, brilliantly marshaling very interesting sources, and a championship-winning comment too. I award you a Nominal Rosette of Excellence. I love your anger, and the fact that you never lose focus on what matters - a murdered human being, cold in the ground.

And then along comes Col. Scott and, with one sentence, puts the entire TLB universe in its proper box, and nails the lid down:

"I think he was a lost stupid soul in a lost stupid time who fucked up huge".

Wow. There it is. A big can of stupid, full of motive soup. I think that's true.

But also, there were other cans, full of worms and history, cans that even the protagonists were unaware of.

Lovely work Ann. Thank you.

Michael Hloušek-Nagle said...

Robert - you are indefatigable in your efforts to place the killings and the Family into historical perspective. It's very serious of you, admirably rigorous, and a massive pain in the ass!

You knew them. Do you ever wonder, if Vietnam hadn't happened, would this bunch of outsiders simply have found some other excuse for their actions? Capitalism? Gas prices? Pollution? Wealth Inequality? Immigration Amnesty? I mean, there's always something you can use as motivation if you've taken enough drugs, fallen in love with your own righteousness, and feel like killing some folks who have views that don't mirror your own.

Or am I way off? I know Vietnam was the defining event of that generation, but when I look at LP covers from the era, or listen to the music, or read what people were writing, I sense such a deep well of narcissism, self-righteousness and infantile ego-fulfillment fueling the whole thing that I think Vietnam was in some sense a cause of convenience, and that if it hadn't been Vietnam it would've been something else.

AustinAnn74 said...

Micharl, always interesting to see your point of view! Thank You!!

Robert Hendrickson said...

Good to hear from you again Michael and Col, sounds like you are finally coming out of your shell. Welcome to a whole new world !!

We ALL love Ann's stuff cause SHE knows how to INSPIRE us to "think" and respond - from a safe distance. BUT she had to actually "experience" something to get to the place that allows HER to "express" that ANGER.

I look for a KEY that might unlock a clue. IE: "In 1966, my father left to go to Vietnam as a pilot."

Yesterday, Hillary Clinton gave an important clue to the mindset of Bobby B. "Clem," Bruce, etc.

Referring to HER email MISTAKE "In retrospect, it was NOT a smart decision" BUT that kind of conscious DECISION, without regard to the ultimate consequences, is called "mental immaturity." SHE did NOT have the mental ability to understand that further into the future, it might harm her chances for becoming the First women President of the US.

Nor did Bobby B. fully understand the consequences of "killing" Gary Hinman.

Nor did Bill Clinton fully understand the consequences of HIS denial that HE had "sex" with that woman.

NOW - in middle schools - girls actually give blow jobs to boys, right in class and IF called upon it, they claim that the ACT means nothing illegal or improper.

Nor did LBJ fully understand the consequences of HIS igniting the Vietnam War. Nor did HE fully understand the consequences of his passing legislation that provides for "paying" Black pregnant women for NOT getting married.

Take away the Vietnam WAR and the Family would find something else to excuse their actions ? Well - isn't that like saying: "Take away ALL the Black men and the COPS would simply find someone else for target practice ?"

orwhut said...

Cielo,

Your correction ," BTW, I meant to say guy not gun." Reminded me me how my typos often spell words that have a connection to the subject matter. I guess the odds are in favor of it.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I know there's an interview with Beausoleil in which he said something very similar to what the Colonel said, that he was trying to impress people (Manson? Bikers?) and do something manly. And that he was essentially lost.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I'm confused by the Kitty statement that she left the Ranch about 8/1 and Atkins had told her she stabbed someone who she fought with and pulled her hair. I thought that was one of her accounts of the fight with Voytek.

Cielodrive.com said...

Ha, they are good odds Orwhut.

Doc, I'll let you know when I hear more news about the Satans movie. He interviewed a bunch of them and it's interesting story as to how the whole project got started.

Hump, Kitty left Spahn but came back later and went with them to Barker

orwhut said...

Bobby got the looks and if time on the outside means anything, Clem, got the brains.

Matt said...

Pope,if you stick to the subject and refrain from calling people rumpkins and so on you won't get deleted. You did it so many times that you were getting deleted on sight. This is your last chance.

leary7 said...

tis the first warm day of spring up here on the Iron Range. I say that because this thread has a wonderful Spring feeling right down to the magnolia-like wonder of the Col being magnanimous.

And Austin Ann does my hometown of Austin very very proud.

Lost souls fucking up huge - at the prompting of a very angry psychopath. Odds are that will be history's view of TLB.

leary7 said...

Ella Jo has always been a favorite of mine, but her comment "I was closer to Gary than anyone but I don't feel responsible for what happened" really sucks. How does she feel "no responsibility" when it seems she first put the idea in Manson's head?
And obviously, when she did leave the ranch after hearing that Gary had been murdered, if she had dropped a dime then TLB would not have taken place. Does anyone know if Ella Jo has ever been asked directly by anyone if she felt any remorse for not coming forward with what she knew when she left the ranch? She is on the top of my list for Family members I would love to hear from before she departs.

Michael Hloušek-Nagle said...

Robert, it's nice to be here again - I spent a couple of weeks obsessively reading about the 'Dyatlov Pass Incident', but now I am back home in TLB land.

The thing I love about Robert is that he can go from BJ to LBJ without pausing for breath. And I do of course defer to your knowledge of the Family as human beings. To me and many others they must remain an idea or a construct, or worse - an illustration, whereas to Robert they were human beings. He has a great advantage there.

I do almost feel sorry for Bobby. But not nearly as much as I do for Gary Hinman et al.

candy and nuts said...

Ann that photo of Susan looks like the photos of that day her and charles were in court together creeepy

candy and nuts said...

what the f a rump kin



AustinAnn74 said...

Exactly, Michael. I feel sorry for BB too, but not like I do for Gary and his family. I can't imagine the pain Gary experienced before he died and the anguish his parents went through knowing how their son died. It's horrible!!

candy and nuts said...

Leary I've tried to call the number you gave me no one answer is this a payphone or what Robert and George and the egotistical lovable col all got properties so does Michael channels

AustinAnn74 said...

I am not sure where that photo of Susan came from. Someone had it on FB and I saw it. It's very seductive looking, yet creepy.

candy and nuts said...

Ann yes Sadie still living in Susan in that photo

orwhut said...

Candy,
Here you go:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rumpkin
I had to look it up, myself.

goldenbear1936 said...

I think he was on drugs and does not remember.

candy and nuts said...

I've heard term country bump kin,,,,never rump

candy and nuts said...

rump means headquarter rump and kin is an as miix with bumpin

candy and nuts said...

not too original portmanteau

candy and nuts said...

I've heard term country bump kin,,,,never rump

St Circumstance said...

James Whitehouse was keeping up a website until Susans death. not sure if it is still going...

It had her most recent novel on it- with her latest version of the real truth..

It also had a pictorial of Susan over the years. I am pretty sure this pic came from that. it would have had to as she wasn't taking pic anywhere else lol

there were pics of her aging over the years and she is wearing street clothes in almost all of them. You can watch her age through the years and to be fair- she did so very well

St0ney said...

The Atkins site is still up.
susanatkins.org

Mr. Humphrat said...

thanks Cielo.
Also re: things Beausoleil has said, there was an interview from recent times in which expressed regret for saying for so long Gary was a drug dealer, that it wasn't true and he had caused pain to his family by saying it. I can't remember if he said he had contacted them to apologize. So I don't know if this is a position he is settled on or has already gone back on it.

AustinAnn74 said...

Mr. Humphrat, are you serious about that interview he did admitting that? If you could let us know where you saw it, I would love to read it.

Mr. Humphrat said...

I"ll look for it

Mr. Humphrat said...

Ann I have looked this morning and it's going to be hard to find but I definitely read it probably in the last year. I will try more later.

AustinAnn74 said...

Thanks, Humphrat! That would be great to read!!

aMy said...

Humphrat that rings a bell with me too. I totally forgot about that! It was possibly one of his 'open letters' on facebook, like one of the messages acknowledging the passing of his wife... i could be wrong on that, but for sure RB did make that statement regarding Gary Hinman

Mr. Humphrat said...

Thanks aMy I thought it would be easier to find and I assumed others had seen it too. I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

aMy said...

No probs Humphrat! I'll have a good root around in the morning and hopefully track statement of his ; )

AustinAnn74 said...

That's strange if he did admit that, because he keeps sticking by that story again & again at parole hearings. Although, I think it's too late for him, at least at the hearing he'll have in the summer.

AustinAnn74 said...

Leary, I didn't know you were from here? Cool! Happy SXSWing.....me, I'm not getting involved in that stew of tourists, even if they paid me. It's gotten way out of hand. Then, half the people that attend will then want to move here. They need to put a halt on all the loads of people moving here.

Mr. Humphrat said...

OK Ann and aMy, I found what I was thinking of: it was actually on Mansonblog Dec. 10, 2012, a recreation of a letter Bobby sent to one of Gary's family members.
The link is http://www.mansonblog.com/2012/12/letter-from-bobby-beausoliel.html
In the bottom paragraph he states that the idea that it was a drug burn was put into his head by others. I don't know if this is his current position.
Also, I noticed in his 2010 parole hearing there is a paragraph in which stated the reasons he had switched his story over the years. Of course at that hearing he was still sticking to the drug burn story.

Underworld Pope said...

All he says in that letter is Gary wasn't a drug dealer. He says the idea was put into his head. Before or after the murder? He talks about trade and barter of drugs, so he isn't saying he lied and it was a straight up robbery. Just because he says Gary wasn't a dealer doesn't mean there wasn't some kind of deal. Dig it, if somebody is have some function and asks me to bake some toll house cookies or make cup cakes and I bring them and sell them. Does that make me a baker? If I visit Rome every so often, does make me an Italian? No. So making a little home brew mescaline for friends or selling a little weed on the side doesn't make you a dealer. People got it in their mind that "dealer" means full time and living like Tony Montana.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Pope yes there is a distinction, but he's saying there was no drug burn. I would like to try to make out some of those redacted words and see if that clarifies anything. Also makes me wonder what he will say at his next parole hearing. Also, yes it's significant whether he's hinting someone put the idea in his head before or after the murder.

AustinAnn74 said...

Again, BB is distracting from the obvious. He's trying to place blame on someone else. There was no magical hand that forced him to stab Gary. None of that is relevant anymore, because the end result is always the same: Gary Hinman lies dead & buried in a lonely, country cemetery in Colorado.

Underworld Pope said...

"It should be clear to you by now that both Gary and I were into some things we would have been wiser to avoid, not least of which was befriending someone as deluded and unscrupulous as Charles Manson." He said the story was put in his head by "others". Not another or Charlie.

AustinAnn74 said...

Of course. Blame the victim.

bucpaul2812 said...

Looking at that photo of Bobby, he really looked "prototype-AB pledge" at the time. One thing I've noticed surrounding Bobby is that whatever environment he was in at the time, he seemed to completely absorb the "template look". When in the Haight, he could have easily passed as one of the entourage of Big Brother. When he hooked up with Anger, he looked like the poster boy of the dark arts and by the time he got to Spahn he appeared to have that "transient chic/satin shirt" look beloved of Charlie and Bruce down to a "T". Had he not been waylaid with murdering Gary Hinman I bet it wouldn't have been long before he started assimilating the de-constructed denim and leather machismo of the Straight Satans. You then have Bobby in his "prison-issue" tattooed glory. The general impression I get surrounding Bobby is that he is, and will remain a dilettante - he latches wholesale onto whatever he thinks is the most beneficial coping mechanism going at the moment, which may go some way towards explaining why his version(s) surrounding his participation in the events of that summer seem to change with each telling.

Mr. Humphrat said...

interesting observations BucPaul. He would have been good during disco.

bucpaul2812 said...

Quite. You could imagine him being the classic Studio 54 groupie, being the alternate plaything of Bianca Jagger and Steve Rubell.

AustinAnn74 said...

Hmmm.

starviego said...

Hinman was killed because Charlie wanted him dead. Getting the money was a secondary consideration.


http://www.cielodrive.com/updates/coming-january-13th-14th-audio-archives-danny-decarlo-interviewed-by-the-los-angeles-county-sheriffs-department/
Danny DeCarlo:
So him and Bruce, went up to Gary’s house. ...And so he walked in the house. And uh, right away Gary ran out to Charlie, “Charlie,” said “I don’t want no trouble. I just want you to leave and take everybody with you. And get out of my house. I’m not gonna tell the police about nothing. Just get out of here.” Charlie didn’t say a word. Smack, cut his ear off. ... Gary hit the ground.
Charlie says, “Listen here little partner, I ain’t bullshitting with you, I’ll kill you. I want your money. I want your house, I want everything.”
And that was the idea. Get everything he owned. ‘Cause they talked about him before, as being a Political Piggy. See, a political fuck up. “Gary’s fucked up in his head, he’s a pig, he’s gotta go. He’s just like society, part of society, so let’s get rid of him. First lets get his money.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20140209204015/http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/true-detective-1970.2881/
DeCarlo said that for several days before the death of Hinman he had overheard conversation between Beausoleil and Manson in which they referred to Hinman as a "political pig who should die."


Investigators were thinking along the same lines in this interview with Ella Jo:

http://www.cielodrive.com/People-V-Manson-Vol-33.pdf
"Miss Bailey, directing your attention to this occasion when you were at the campsite in Devil's Canyon, in the latter part of July, 1969, during that conversation--during the one in which you suggested Gary Hinman's name as somebody who might come with the Family...
...was there any conversation or any statements made during that conversation at the campsite .. in which someone said.. that Gary Hinman was to be killed?"
(Ella Jo denied it, but clearly the investigators had received info that such a conversation had occurred.)


So, if it wasn't the money, what was the motive? Because he was a "Political Piggy?" What does that mean? Most likely it had something to do with Hinman's activities while at UCLA:

http://www.mansonblog.com/search/label/Mary%20Brunner
...during Bobby's 2010 parole hearing he told the board that the reason he put blame on black people is because he wanted to blame the murder on some of the "radical" people that Gary Hinman was involved with at UCLA. He also told the board that Gary was involved with black people that were radicals, and that he (Gary) was into radical philosophies, etc.

http://www.bardachreports.com/articles/oa_19811100.htm
Gary Hinman, had been a hippie renaissance figure in the '60s: a Ph.D. candidate in Sociology at U.C.L.A., a political activist...

But how did Charlie know of this, and why would he care? How well did Charlie know Gary? There is a whole 'nuther dimension to this thing we don't know about....

starviego said...

Years later, Manson claims Hinman was an informant. Of course Charlie is hardly credible, but that doesn't mean it is untrue. If so, who was Hinman snitching on? The doped-up hippies, or maybe those radicals over at UCLA?

https://youtu.be/w5FvQFgA2H8
Charles Manson BBC Interview Part 4 8:30 mark
(re Hinman) "He was an informant for the government. He was playing all kinds of treacherous games that he shouldn't have been playing. See when you're in the underworld you got to be truthful. If you lie and you're faking and you're snitching and it catches up with you, it's bites you... "

Police noticed Hinman's stolen red VW van at Spahns when they did their July 27, 1969 raid.

Sanders' The Family, pg250
"When they called in the license number and it came back as belonging to Hinman, one of the officers said: "Hey, I know Hinman; he must be out here visiting." "

Familiarity implies prior contact--did the cops know Hinman precisely because he was an informant? Is that the real reason he was targeted? But who told Manson that Gary was an informant?



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