Monday, March 16, 2020

Randy Starr's Grand Jury Testimony


Randy Starr was a ranch hand and stuntman who worked and lived at Spahn Ranch.  For a little background George Stimson did a piece on the blog about Randy HERE .
Randy comes into play because he was said to have owned and given to Charles Manson the gun used at the Tate house during the murders.  Randy did not testify at the Tate LaBianca trial because he became ill with an ear infection which went untreated and he developed meningitis and died August 4 1970.

Vincent Buliosi writes in his book Helter Skelter (1994 page 376, in the chapter titled April 1970)-
Another find was Randy Starr, whom I interviewed the same day as Ruby.  A Sometime movie stunt man who specialized in fake hangings, Starr said the Tate Sebring rope was “identical” to a rope he’d once used to help Manson pull a vehicle out of the creek bed.  Starr told me, “Manson always kept the rope behind the seat in his dune buggy.”
Even more important was Randy Starr’s positive identification of the .22 Longhorn revolver, for Starr had once owned the gun and had given it to Manson.
There is a footnote at the bottom of the page which reads-
The gun, serial number 1902708, had been among a number of weapons taken from the Archery Headquarters in El Monte California, during a burglary on the night of March 12, 1969.  According to Starr, he obtained it in trade with a man only known as “Ron.”  Manson was always borrowing the gun for target practice, and Randy finally gave it to him in trade for a truck that belonged to Danny DeCarlo.
Randy Starr testified to a grand jury convened for the death of Gary Hinman.  Charles Manson, Susan Atkins and Bruce Davis were the defendants and it was held on April 9 and 12 1970 in Los Angeles.  This is the only known testimony given under oath by Starr.
While Randy’s testimony does mention the gun, it is more focused on the knife used to stab Gary Hinman and found in Bobby Beausoleil’s possession when he was arrested August 6 1969.  

The testimony also focuses on a sword in Manson’s possession.  Starr says it was usually kept in holder in Manson’s dune buggy.
There is nothing in the testimony about the rope used at the Tate murders, nor should there have been because this was a grand jury for the Hinman murder.  Which makes me wonder why the gun was mentioned.  There was a gun used at Hinman’s, not to shoot Gary but during a scuffle it went off and struck the kitchen cabinets and wall.  The bullets that were dug out matched the 9mm Random automatic that Bruce Davis bought under a false name on July 14 1969.  Randy mentions a long barreled 9-shot revolver and a .45 but not a 9mm in his testimony.
All in all I went away a little confused by Randy’s testimony.  It seemed as if Randy was trying to take credit for having provided Manson with many of the weapons used in the Hinman and Tate murders.  I was unaware that the knife Bobby used had originally belonged to Starr.  
I have to wonder how Randy would have stood up under cross examination at a trial.

41 comments:

orwhut said...

The least Bobby could have done is to have stabbed Gary with a respectable looking knife that didn't have a cheap bottle opener on it. It seems like the final insult.

Gorodish said...

That's an eagle's head, not a bottle opener.

DebS said...

I think Orwhut is referring to what is on the blade near the hilt, it does look like a bottle opener.

Gorodish said...

I looked again, my bad. I see the opener on the blade. The eagle head kinda looked to me like it would also work as a bottle opener.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

"The city streets are empty now...and so the sounds are way down low...
turning, tuurn, turning...through all I sit here and I wait..."
('Turn To Stone' song by brother Jeff Lynne.)
This is to show what's going, or not going on, out there and so I hope you are all well and we get through this new worldwide crisis safely. Thank you
Now then, here we are at the characters, the jackasses that walked around the town of Spahn and round and round LA with weapons and so, the murders of Shea and more.
The cowpokes over at Spahn were basically decent guys,such as Randy Starr, Shea and some others, working for a living.
Not these clowns: Grogan, Davis, Bobby (actually he didn't live there) and other bums there.
Yet more simple proof that they were neither real hippies, the original meaning which was generally 'live and let live,' no violence, try to live somewhat more in a 'natural' way, respect for others and for the land.
I can see having weapons for protection, I definitely support gun rights for that- the 2nd Amendment.
But aside from general protection, what was up with all the guns and knives at Spahn? Ah. but some were dealing drugs and so, we had the rip-off situation with Crowe and so on and a defensive stand was called for. So we now are in a foreword mode, MO's, as it were, to use the weapons for offence! No Bueno my friends.
They committed violent crimes against god and against humans and so they took those/their lucky-easy life breaks and threw it all away and the well meaning people, that were among them, of the 'Family,' too lost some freedom and whatever...

orwhut said...

A few years before the murders, I bought a more respectable looking knife than that on sale at Western Auto. I think the price was ninety-five cents.

Proteus said...

Hendrickson used to drive me Mad with his stream of Consciousness thoughts and his Random Capitalisation. Never really knew what he was saying most of the time.

Mario Nitrini's unexplained mysteries and heavy hints that never go anywhere didn't help the cause either.

And now we have Fayez Abedaziz, whose crumpled prose and private allusions are equally incomprehensible.

May I suggest to all here that if you have something to say, say it, clearly and in a way others can understand.

And I can't get a headache pill anywhere because all the stores have run out ...

orwhut said...

Blogger Proteus said...
Hendrickson used to drive me Mad with his stream of Consciousness thoughts and his Random Capitalisation. Never really knew what he was saying most of the time.

Try getting a simple comprehensible answer from my wife.

Matt said...

Proteus said...
Hendrickson used to drive me Mad ...

Mario Nitrini's unexplained mysteries ...

And now we have Fayez Abedaziz, whose ...

May I suggest to all here...

And I can't get a headache pill anywhere because all the stores have run out ...



Cranky old Englishmen crack me up.


Penny lane said...

Me too...still chuckling :)

Mon Durphy said...

I'm no expert on the subject but it definitely looks like an odd knife to stab someone with, looks very dull

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Mr Proteus,
My "unexplained mysteries and heavy hints......?"

I emailed Matt over a year ago about a Direct Message that I sent to George Christie on Twitter that will explain certain aspects pertaining to The Charles Manson Saga. Matt chose not to post it. I cannot fault Matt for that. It could potentially bring some unwanted and un-needed "heat" on this blog.

Quite-a-ago, when I found out about the Charles "Tex" Watson
(unheard publicly)
tapes, I called several TV news stations here in Los Angeles regarding them. If no one believes me? Call Fox11 and ask them about me. When I first commented on this blog here
πŸ‘‡
https://www.mansonblog.com/2017/01/charles-manson-is-returned-to-prison.html?m=1
it was for my legal reasons. I needed to document......
Matt has let me comment on his blog, and I thank him for that.

I comment the way I do for my legal reasons.

Some issues:
1. Alisa Statman STILL has me blocked on Twitter. WHY? I don't know. I have been very supportive of Ms Statman on this blog.

2. There was a lady that commented quite a while ago re: Manson Family member Steve "Clem" Grogan. She described him EXACTLY the way my ex-wife (now deceased) described him.....CREEPY CLEM. Grogan was at my ex-wife's first marriage
(not ours)
ceremony in Simi Valley, Ca.
I will say this. When I talked to Grogan at the Lamplighter, he definitely had mellowed-out. I did asked him about him being at that marriage ceremony, but he just shrugged his shoulders.

3. I still haven't been able to find anything about the Fireside Inn, in Topanga Canyon.

On a lighter note, I wonder if I still drive David/Dreath
(the lawyer)
crazy?.....lol

And whatever happened to my "VERY" supportive friends on this blog, Ziggy & St Circumstance?

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

DebS said...

Mario George Nitrini 111 said.

3. I still haven't been able to find anything about the Fireside Inn, in Topanga Canyon.

Mario have you tried contacting the people at this website?

http://brasstackspress.byethost11.com/archive.html?i=1

They have tons of old stuff on Topanga, Lower Topanga and the Snake Pit.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Thanks DebS,
I will give it a try contacting
πŸ‘‡
http://brasstackspress.byethost11.com/archive.html?i=1
I'll let you know if I have any information regarding The Fireside Inn, in Topanga Canyon.

Mario George Nitrini 111
-----
The OJ Simpson Case

xreles said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
xreles said...

Proteus said...

Hendrickson used to drive me Mad with his stream of Consciousness thoughts and his Random Capitalisation. Never really knew what he was saying most of the time.

Mario Nitrini's unexplained mysteries and heavy hints that never go anywhere didn't help the cause either.

And now we have Fayez Abedaziz, whose crumpled prose and private allusions are equally incomprehensible.

May I suggest to all here that if you have something to say, say it, clearly and in a way others can understand.

And I can't get a headache pill anywhere because all the stores have run out ...
__________________________________________________________________________________________

^This person can see my thoughts.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

"and our friends are all aboard...and the band begins to play...we all live in a yellow submarine..." Ringo Starr singing 'Yellow Submarine.' "hey...hey a hey..."
--me, enjoying it all.
Dig?
Yellow Submarine. Is that a sandwich or a house?
Taking another trip down '69's memory lane I wonder as to the effects the Fab Four had on people (my first acid trip, in summer,'68, in a room with some others, had music playing on the stereo and the song Strawberry Fields was one as I began to drift away.)
But wait, there's more:
Randy Starr? Ringo Starr? What exactly is up with that, y'all?
Well, that is an example of say, a fun mystery, among others, my head has been asking,
that has bearing on: The Beatles responsibility for some of what occurred in the late 60's. We may, maybe, dismiss the idea that Randy Starr didn't copy Ringo's stage name.
After all, Ringo's real name is Richard Starkey.
However, oh yeah, now we approach what I would like to say (which I have already written, but will do that, as a comment, that is, at the next article here, that has to do with the events of August 8-10, 1969.
Come on now you four lads from Liverpool, especially Paul and George:
You made convenient comments about certain songs and fudged and dismissed your part in and responsibility in what happened,in '69. How easy and nice!?
There should have been another approach aside from asking Paul and George, so politely, as to well, what was up with what's being said about your songs words and
what some citizens of California did 'outside of the law,' for example, eh?
Okay, I know what should have been done to make Paul and George 'come clean.'
I didn't wanna do that under this fine post about Randy. Though, didn't Randy get the idea for his name Starr from Ringo?

xreles said...

^
Ring master steps out and says "the elephants left town"
People jump and jive, but the ^clowns have stuck around^

Ooh, baby, ooh, baby It's making me crazy, it's making me crazy

How bizarre
How bizarre, how bizarre!

xreles said...

RIP Pauly

xreles said...

This thread already has one tire off the pavement so I'll go ahead and ask an off topic question I've long wanted to know.

How to pronounce 'Ouisch'

I thought I found the answer a few years back while listening to her police interview on cielodrive.com ...but because I never knew before and then heard StrangeRVTours say it differently in their Manson Cave video, now I'm not sure again. So, a little help plz.

Cielodrive.com interview makes sense to me.It tells the story of a kid trying to say Ruth but can only say oosh.
As in nike swoosh minus the sw

No offense intended toward StrangeRVTours, I like the vids you guys do.

Gorodish said...

xreles typed:

How to pronounce 'Ouisch'

From what I understood it sounds like "weesh"....like the French article "oui" + the "ssh". George Spahn gave her the nickname.

xreles said...

Alright! Thank you Gorodish.

orwhut said...

My favorite explanation of the origin of Ruth Ann's nickname gives a possible pronunciation. Someone said that boys used to see her and say "oow wee". Somehow it morphed to Ouisch.

Who decided how to spell it?

Proteus said...

Fayez hoc dixit:

Come on now you four lads from Liverpool, especially Paul and George:
You made convenient comments about certain songs and fudged and dismissed your part in and responsibility in what happened, in '69. How easy and nice!?


WTF? That’s like blaming cutlery manufacturers for knifings, or pharma for ODs. Or do you have anything to say to indicate what exactly was their part in and responsibility in what happened, in '69?

Need those headache pills more than ever.

orwhut said...

Proteus,
I thought about you today when buying my wife some pain killers. Had to get Arthritis strength, all the other Tylenol was gone.

grimtraveller said...

Proteus said...

Hendrickson...with his stream of Consciousness thoughts and his Random Capitalisation. Never really knew what he was saying most of the time.
Mario Nitrini's unexplained mysteries and heavy hints that never go anywhere....
And now we have Fayez Abedaziz, whose crumpled prose and private allusions are equally incomprehensible.

May I suggest to all here that if you have something to say, say it, clearly and in a way others can understand


Proteus certainly has a point. Robert was oblique, Mario is a touchline politician and Fayez is one of those inscrutable poets that laughs at his own jokes that are designed for him only to understand !
But it occurs to me that the issue with all three isn't {or wasn't} that they espouse the mysteries of the universe in the way they communicate. After all, probably many of us do that, sometimes in the way we'll use "insider references" to films or song lyrics that many others aren't aware of. No, the difference is that when asked a direct question requiring a direct answer with no fluff, no imagery and no mystery, the overwhelming majority of the time, that answer is/was not forthcoming. That's what was, and continues to be, frustrating. It wouldn't be so bad if there was at least some music to go with the obscurities !

WTF? That’s like blaming cutlery manufacturers for knifings, or pharma for ODs. Or do you have anything to say to indicate what exactly was their part in and responsibility in what happened, in '69?

Actually, if Fayez is getting at what I think he's getting at, I think he's got a point. I wouldn't use the word 'responsibility' though.
If you're into the Beatles music and you like a good read and you've not already done so, search out a book called "Revolution in the head" by the late Ian MacDonald. It goes through each of the songs they recorded and gives various thoughts, opinions, details on the recordings etc. What MacDonald says in his blurb about the song "Glass Onion" is fascinating and is the stuff of passionate debates that I've never heard anyone have yet !

orwhut said...

Try getting a simple comprehensible answer from my wife

Did she not once say to you "I do" ?

xreles said...

an off topic question I've long wanted to know. How to pronounce 'Ouisch'

From the very first time I read the book back in '78 when I was 15, I just pronounced it "Ooo - Ish" {or Ooo - Wish}, like someone from the nation of Ooo would be described as Ooo-ish {like someone from Sweden is Swedish}.
That was worthy of an MUA {mysterious utterance award} !
The school I work in has many children {in fact, the overwhelming majority} for whose parents English is not their primary language and it's really educational getting them to pronounce words. This week, I was teaching an 11 year old from Romania who cannot speak a word of English to recognize some words and pronounce them properly and it was great fun. She pronounced 'mouth' as 'mouse' so I showed her a mouse and tried to get her to pronounce 'mouth' with the 'th' which she had real problems with. But mis-pronunciation of words one reads but has never heard spoken is common to humanity. Equally, the spelling of words that one has only ever heard but not seen or taken note of brings about problems as we saw with Pat and "Healter skelter."

orwhut said...

Try getting a simple comprehensible answer from my wife

Did she not once say to you "I do" ?

Good one, Grim. I'll mention that to her.

orwhut said...

Before we lost Robert and at the time he was giving his strange answers. My mother was dying from Alzheimer's. I guess I saw that as everyone's problem because I was so close to it and thought Robert might be coming down with the same disease.
From what Col. Scott said about Robert's sudden death. I think he got lucky.

Proteus said...

Grim said:

... if Fayez is getting at what I think he's getting at ...

Should I refer him to pots and kettles ...?

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

DebS,
I did get a reply back from
"Back Stacks Press."
They have no information about The Fireside Inn. They even researched it.
Thanks for giving me their website.

grimtraveller (AKA Grim)
Perhaps soon, you'll figure out me...... but, it will be difficult.
(WINK).
And what in the world is a
"TOUCHLINE POLITICIAN"?
Oh and Grim:
πŸ‘‡
"The mysteries just keep on coming"

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

orwhut said...

Mario,
I must have forgotten or missed some messages. Please tell your connection with the O.J. Case?

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

orwhut,
I do not want to hijack DebS'
blog-post.
You can Google me, OJ Simpson & Rocky Bateman in the same search engine and read.
Thanks for your interest.

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

Doug said...

Bwahahaha

orwhut said...

Thank you, Mario. What I've read so far is very interesting.
Whut

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

You're welcome Whut.
Thanks for the interest.

Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case

grimtraveller said...

Proteus said...

Should I refer him to pots and kettles ...?

Well, there is a certain irony in his observation, given that he sometimes writes in the same obscure manner and would baulk if someone committed murder because of what they got from his writing. But I think he has a solid point in what he was saying there. It's nuanced, but many of the telling points that we grapple with, are.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

And what in the world is a "TOUCHLINE POLITICIAN"?

It's a phrase I made up many moons ago to describe people that don't answer straight questions, rather like British politicians who have become renowned for not answering a question that is put to them either by a journalist or a member of the public. The touchline is the perimeter line on a soccer pitch and by being on the touchline, the politician is only just where the action is but also far away enough to quickly hop off the field of play to avoid a hard tackle that could leave them limping. I usually put it together with the phrase "snakeskin cowboy" which is the title of a song by Ted Nugent and evokes images of the same slippery character.

Mon Durphy said...

I'm no expert on the subject but it definitely looks like an odd knife to stab someone with

Nick the right organ or artery and they all count.

Proteus said...

Grim:

When I said Should I refer him to pots and kettles ...? I was actually referring to you, specifically when you wrote if Fayez is getting at what I think he's getting at ... .

I thought you be were being wilfully enigmatic here, and I suspect many including myself have no idea what you are referring to.

As enlightenment is unlikely to be forthcoming from the OP perhaps you might oblige? Or must I ago to the [excellent] book of Ian Macdonald's you cite?

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

Well grimtraveller, thanks for clarifying your made-up-term
πŸ‘‡
"touchline politican"
that you referred to me as.

I've been called a lot of names in my life, but the one I cherish most...lol...is being called:
πŸ‘‡
The Lunitic of The OJ Simpson Case.

As I've said before, I comment the way I do for MY-LEGAL-REASONS.

And Grim, perhaps you might listen to this Joe South song titled:
πŸ‘‡
"Walk a Mile in My Shoes"
πŸ‘‡
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fd0dQkDTZtA
before you give me another
πŸ‘‡
"made-up-term"

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

grimtraveller said...

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

perhaps you might listen to this Joe South song titled: "Walk a Mile in My Shoes"

No thanks. I've said it before, if you choose to talk about something that could bring you heat, legally or otherwise, that's on you. No one asks you to do so. So why bring yourself a reputation as someone that can't be taken seriously by speaking in half measures and cryptic utterances ? If anyone knows what you are talking about most of the time, I'm all ears.

Proteus said...

I suspect many including myself have no idea what you are referring to

Back on March 9th in the thread on the Gary Hinman murder scene, I wrote a couple of answers in response to Mon Durphy about responsibility, influence and song lyrics. Have a look at those. I think that Fayez has a point in what he was saying above about the Beatles. I think he was highlighting the relationship between the words of influential artists that are held up as spokespeople by certain of the masses and some of their subsequent actions, hence me saying "if Fayez is getting at what I think he's getting at." I mean, I could be wrong.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

Good evening Grimtraveller,
Yeah, thanks, you are quite right about my inferences about influences on young people's minds, their perceptions when they read or listen to someone that 'knows...'
and I can say right now, before I put my comment on what I aim to present, at a later post that deals with August, 1969 and/or the trial, that I personally was influenced by the Fab Four and well, more on that too, then.
I have and do still, love The Beatles and so, things are what they are.
So, I think we'll have a good time when there is more discussion later as I stated in the sentences above.
Of course, I have a way of writing and I put up conversations, perhaps be had, so to speak and expect fun and civil debate.

xreles said...

Thank all who answered!
I take it's ~ eww yuck wish ~ minus the yuck. eww-wish.
So this guy is saying it right at 38 secs, Right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OxaVsydCYc&feature=youtu.be&t=34