Monday, March 9, 2020

Stolen Checks and the Enigma that is Bill Vance

Among the newly surfaced images and documents is a property report for items confiscated during the Barker Ranch Raids.

This property report essentially transfers items collected in the raids from Inyo County to Los Angeles County to be investigated and used in future trials.  The transfer was made February 18 1970.





Listed among the items are numerous checks, some blank and some made out to specific people.  A Hedman Check Protector is the first item listed.  There are also office supply type items, OTC drugs, receipts, envelopes which are possibly addressed to certain people and the attache case where Shorty stored his guns.  Going down to item 29 on the second page of the report, a suitcase is listed.

The suitcase contains more checks, ledgers, a pink slip for a '55 Mercury,a hotel key, 15 Master Lock keys and various odds and ends.



Some of the checks were stolen from Spahn Movie Ranch and made out with the check protector to William Rex Cox.  Hummmm.... that sounds a lot like William Rex Cole.  All of the checks were made out in the amount of  $137.35 and signed by George C. Spahn. (More than likely George Spahn's signature was forged)

Numerous other checks were stolen from H B Irwin Plumbing Inc. located at 20555 Superior St. Chatsworth.  Some of those checks were made out partially or completely to James M Miller, John Phillip Haught and Dwayne Ernest Schwarm.  Manson used the last name of Miller on occasion, we know who John Phillip Haught was and Dwayne Schwarm was an alias used by Bill Vance.

Another slug of checks came from Oregon.  Some of them were from Lear Siegler Inc. Holly Division 7340 NE Sandy Blvd. in Portland.  Those, too, were completely or partially made out to James M Miller, John Phillip Haught and Diane Marie Von Ahn.  More checkbooks were found printed with the name Duane E Schwarm at the Sandy Blvd. address.



Duane Ernest Schwarm was a real person who, as near as I can tell, lived and worked for majority of his life in Oregon.  He married in Oregon four times, 1953, 1969, 1976 and 1982, and died in 2010.  He was born in Chicago IL Dec. 1 1933 and his first name was spelled Dwayne on his birth record but all subsequent records spell his first name as Duane with the same birth date.  There is no indication that he had any relationship to the Family.

Diane Marie Von Ahn was a Family member, she used an alias of Mary Ann Schwarm and she was from Gresham OR.  She died in a motorcycle accident in Oregon June 30 1972.  Her death record is in the name Diana Vonahn.  Her mug shot is #49 here.

What we do not know is how many checks Family members may have cashed before they were arrested.  It's probably a safe bet to believe that forged checks were cashed, Nancy Pitman took off with Bruce Davis because she was facing bad check charges.  The Missouri articles about William Rex Cole and his "flock" stated that Claudia Leigh Smith aka Linda Baldwin was wanted on some kind of check charges.  There may be more of those types of charges that we never knew about because stolen and forged checks pale in comparison to the murders.

On to the enigma of Bill Vance. Nothing has been solved but more information has come to light.

Generally when people take aliases they use a name of a real person.

Bill Vance had three different drivers licenses.

The oldest one was in the name of William Joseph Vance.  It was issued November 2 1965 and gives his address as Spahn Movie and TV Ranch on Susana Pass Rd.  Chatsworth.  On the application for the license Vance said he had a previous license in Tennessee and that it was lost.  It appears the license expired in 1968.





The next license was in the name William Rex Cole.  It was issued September 8 1969 and gives an address of Spahn Movie Ranch Chatsworth.  The application claims that his previous license was issued in Texas and it was lost.




The third license was in the name of Dwayne Ernest Schwarm, it was issued September 19 1969, just 11 days after the William Rex Cole license was issued,  This time there is an address in Reseda CA given as his residence.  The house number and street are redacted.  The application states that his previous license was issued in Oregon and, you guessed right, it was lost.




The birth dates on all three licenses are redacted but they all give the same general age.  The signatures on all three look to be written by the same hand.

What is interesting is that the Schwarm license uses Schwarm's legal first name though the checks are printed with the first name as Duane according to the report.

A little bit of research was done on the other two names.

There were two William Rex Cole's found but both were quite a bit older than the age on the license in that name.  One was born in 1917 and lived in Virginia and the other was born in 1919 and lived in West Virginia.  There was another William Rex Cole who was born in Arizona December 13 1951 and died the next day.

There were five William Joseph Vance's but one stood out to me.  When doing research on Windy Bucklee, true name Lee Saunooke, I found an obit for her step-father.  His survivors listed Lee as well as his wife Theressa Vance Longano.  The Vance name jumped out and I learned it was her maiden name.  Searching Theressa's family tree I found that she had a brother named William Joseph Vance.




Is it possible that Windy Bucklee supplied Bill Vance with the name of her uncle?  According to his driver's license he was at Spahn Ranch in 1965 and so was Windy.  Does Windy know Bill's true name?

Circling back to the stolen checks, if John Haught was indeed murdered, did it have something to do with the stolen checks?  Could he have expressed a desire to come clean to the authorities about the checks and, like the later murder of James Willett, was he  killed for saying he was thinking about it?

And, I think now we know the answer to an often asked question, "Where did the Family get their money?"  Steal, forge and cash checks.


84 comments:

Doug said...

Great post
Lots to chee on here
Thanks

Peter said...

#13 Can containing 2 bottles of ink eraser.

starviego said...

So what was Vance's real name?

DebS said...

Star, nobody knows what Vance's true name is/was, that's why he's an enigma. I've had people tell me that they thought he was an informant because he was never charged with and convicted of Shorty's murder although by Grogan and Davis's accounts, he was there and struck a blow.

Peter said...

What I can't understand is that if he was a friend of Manson's from prison, wouldn't the prison he was in have gotten to the bottom of his actual identity ?

Mon Durphy said...

Manson said Bill was the heavyweight boxing champion at Brushy Mountain State Prison for 9 years in Tennessee, do a search on that place, it's one of the scariest prisons I've seen

DebS said...

Peter, maybe the prison and law enforcement did know his true name, they just didn't let the public know that because they were protecting him. On Deemer's list he has two different drivers license and two different social security numbers. If Bill did not become William Rex Cole until he applied for a drivers license under that name in September 1969, how the heck did he also get a social security number in that name? And why would he apply for a social security number in the Cole name? It wasn't as if he was ever seeking bona fide employment.

You can figure out that the two drivers licenses on Deemer's list are for the names Vance and Cole from the drivers licenses posted. I don't think that's it's a leap to think the two social security numbers are also in the names Vance and Cole.

Mon Durphy said...

Charlie himself said in a recorded phone call that no one, including himself ever knew what his real name saying "but that's the way we do it where I live", I'm assuming the "where I live" means prison since they both served long stretches of time

Mon Durphy said...

I doubt Bill was a rat, he just doesn't fit the mold, I'm not saying it's impossible but Bill was known to be a pretty rough dude who served a decade in a prison that looks like a Civil War era tomb, I think when the shit hit the fan he just left and got out of town

Mon Durphy said...

Good job on the research by the way

DebS said...

Mon, I have looked for and never found an arrest for William Joseph Vance or William Rex Cole so can't confirm what prison he may have been in. Manson was never in Brushy Mountain State Prison so what ever knowledge he has of Vance's boxing prowess in that prison had to come from Vance himself and Vance could have lied about it.

I'm not saying Vance was never in prison, he certainly could have been but with a different name.

Mon Durphy said...

Yeah Deb but remember alot of the time Manson served in the 50s and even 40s was in prisons and reformatories around Appalachia, West Virginia, Virginia, DC, Ohio, etc and word gets around prisons very easily

Mon Durphy said...

And also remember that the search you did was on those two names when we already edtablishef that no one really knew his real name

Mon Durphy said...

The way I always understood it was that Charlie and "Bill" friendship was based more on their shared Appalachian upbringing and being lifetime petty criminals

DebS said...

There's pros and cons for Vance being an informant. A con would be the fact that Whitely and Guenther were looking for Vance regarding the supposed recording made after the Hinman murder depicting the murder. If Vance were an informant, he probably would have turned the recording over and not skipped out to Missouri with the recordings.

I'm just throwing the informant possibility out there to see what others think and if they can provide any supporting information. Vance disappeared so completely after Missouri and it is suspect, to me, how he could manage that so well without leaving a trace.

Mon Durphy said...

Yeah, like I said anything is possible, have you ever considered maybe he died? Maybe do a search of death records and see what you come up with

DebS said...

Yes, most likely he is dead by now and I've done that. No joy there. I have also researched the David Lee Hamic alias. Hamic was supposedly Vance's nephew. I figured out who David's mother was, he was born out of wedlock. His mother had two brothers, one definitely could not have been Vance and I don't think the other younger brother was Vance either but there is little info on him other than basic birth and death records. I could not find that the younger brother had ever been arrested either.

That branch of the Hamic family lived in Missouri and Texas. The name David Lee Hamic is so specific and Hamic is not a very common name. Vance had to have known them but it doesn't necessarily mean that he was related. People do call someone an aunt or uncle if they are close friends with their parents, at times.

Peter said...

How didhe have a 1965 license with Spahn as the address? Was he there before the Family ?

DebS said...

Apparently he was there before the Family and while Manson was still in federal prison. Windy Bucklee basically told me as such, that she knew Vance from Spahn Ranch long before Manson came along. But I took much of what Windy said with a grain of salt until I could verify what she said. Much of it I couldn't but some of it was true. This is one of those instances where I reserved judgement until some sort of proof came along and it looks like she was not lying about knowing Vance much earlier.

This revelation makes it seem as if Manson didn't personally know Vance prior to 1968. It's never been said that Vance was the reason for Manson coming to the ranch.

Peter said...

That's a lot of co-inkydinks there. So Manson ends up at the Ranch and Vance has been there already for three whole years? Doing what? He doesn't seem like the type that would hang around shoveling shit for three years. But you are right and I've never read anything saying Manson found out about the ranch from Vance, although I can't remember what exactly I have read on that. Is it possible that the first license isn't a forgery or that it belongs to someone who is the real Vance and not in fact the person we think is Vance.



DebS said...

I think the licenses are genuine in so far as Vance personally applied for them. The signatures look to be written by the same hand, to my eye. The info below each license, where it asks why you are applying, is part of the application process and not part of a public record. I don't know how anyone could forge that.

Doug said...

CHEW

Doug said...

Witness Protection Program?

Maybe the recording was for LE, but he freaked out/was scared for his life...knowing his own involvement with Shorty's death and, of Manson's reach and ability to shut him down...permanently.

Just tossing this out there

Mon Durphy said...

Do you believe the story of Windy pulling the gun on Manson after he slapped her?

DebS said...

No, I don't believe that.

Mon Durphy said...

I agree with you there

DebS said...

Windy has been convicted of fraud. Anything she says is suspect.

San Francisco Examiner Jan.11 1998

Woman Gets 2 Years for False-Twin Scheme

Chico, Butte Co.- A woman who posed as her own twin to collect welfare payments and worker's compensation at the same time has been sentenced to two years in state prison.

Lee Saunooke, 57, pleaded guilty to felony welfare fraud in December and was sentenced Thursday in a Butte County court.

Saunooke was accused of creating a false twin and collecting more than $38,000 in welfare benefits since 1991.

Matthew said...

Peter said;
. So Manson ends up at the Ranch and Vance has been there already for three whole years? Doing what? He doesn't seem like the type that would hang around shoveling shit for three years.

Vance may not be the reason that Manson ended up at the ranch but seems likely that he is how Manson heard of the ranch. Also, just because Vance had a license with the ranch as his address doesn't mean that he stayed there the whole three years. Could have just been using the address as a base. It would be interesting to know how exactly Manson ended up at ranch. Did one of the girls scope it out? For some reason I remember reading once that someone scoped it out for him and reported back. Interesting stuff here.

Matthew said...

According to the book Hippie Cult Leader: The Last Words of Charles Manson,it was Susan Atkins that found the ranch sometime in 1967. So does that mean that it was pure coincidence that Vance, who Charlie already knew from prison just happened to have been living there? I am not sure where the author got that information but I believe that he interviewed Manson directly for the book according to the History channel article.

Peter said...

I read that it was Sadie that first found out about Spahn's.

Peter said...

Paul Watkins also describes Vance as "recently released from prison."

DebS said...

Mark Turner who had the website charliemanson.com (available through the Wayback Machine) puts the Family as arriving at Spahn Ranch about May 6, 1968. They went to see an artist named "John". John was Irwin Friedman later known as Partee. Friedman was married to Patricia Feeney, she was the sister of William Feeney who was the renter of record for the house at 626 Cole St. San Francisco.

This makes the most sense as to how Manson learned about Spahn. Later during the Spahn Ranch Raid a boy named Johnny who was 10 years old was taken into custody along with the other children. Johnny was Friedman's son. Friedman and his wife Patricia were the people who raised Sandra Good's son Ivan.

Panamint Patty said...

Windy the windbag

Mon Durphy said...

Deb what was the move to Gresham St in Canoga in January about then? I've never understood why move there and then back to Chatsworth when they're not that far apart

orwhut said...

I THINK I read that Sandra made the initial contact with Spahn Ranch.

Panamint Patty said...

Absent from the list: spyglass supposedly stolen from Dennis Wilson's house

DebS said...

I'm not sure Mon, but I think that Charlie wanted to keep his options open. A few people here, a few people there and if they were kicked out of some place there was always somewhere else to go.

They had the Spahn option when they were at Dennis Wilson's, they had the Myers Ranch option when they were at Barker as well as having a drop off point at Hanum's ranch in Olancha.

Also, people moved back and forth from Barker and Spahn during that time. When Charlie left Spahn a few stayed behind and that kept their options open, too.

grimtraveller said...

orwhut said...

I THINK I read that Sandra made the initial contact with Spahn Ranch

That's what "Charlie" says in Emmons. More or less.

Peter said...

I read that it was Sadie that first found out about Spahn's

That's what she said in "Child of Satan...."

On the grounds of probability from an insider, I'd say it was Susan, not because she was a paragon of truth ~ she was anything but ~ but because that's what Squeaky relates in her book, much of which was written in the 70s.

Mon Durphy said...

what was the move to Gresham St in Canoga in January about then? I've never understood why move there and then back to Chatsworth

The desert was cold !

Mon Durphy said...

Spahn wasn't really the "desert", it was in the Santa Susana hills but it was only 3 or 4 miles from Gresham St, now Barker was in the desert

Mon Durphy said...

Makes sense Deb, thanks

orwhut said...

Thank you Grim. I have Emmons book, that must be where I read it.

Matthew said...

Mon Durphy asked what was the move to Gresham street about?

This is from the book Manson: In his own words

Now that it was December, when the high desert where we were living gets cold, a temporary move back into town would be good for all of us. Of course, we still had people at Spahn, mostly girls who spelled each other looking after George. But things at Spahn were too disorganized for us to do any serious rehearsing. Finding a place that would accommodate fifteen or twenty kids wasn’t an easy task. I finally found a house on Gresham Street in Canoga Park. It sat on about an acre of ground, had four bedrooms, two baths, a big kitchen and a large front room that made a great studio for our music sessions. It was only about a thirty-minute drive from Hollywood, and only a few miles from Spahn’s, which was a convenience in itself. Because of its bright yellow paint, we called the place the “Yellow Submarine.” For all the ups and downs we had there, we should have named it Roller-coaster.”

Mon Durphy said...

Thanks Matthew, through the years of all the reading I had forgotten they had been at Barker in late 68 and I can see what Manson means thete, I'll bet it gets incredibly cold out there in the winter months

Mon Durphy said...

By the way when you Google search the Gresham St address today it appears to be an apartment building

Gorodish said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gorodish said...

Another version of the move to Gresham St. came from Squeaky. She wrote:

Sometime around January 1969, Charlie's friend, Bill, already had access to a two-story house where some of us were staying part-time. But the reason that we moved en masse was that George and I had an argument. Three or four times after he had visitors, he told me that someone had referred to us as "that bunch of hippies hanging around".
"A lot of your fellas have beards..." he told me. I told him it was the fashion. "Makes a place look bad'". I let it pass, but one day he got testy about it. "I've seen plenty of beards in my time and they were usually on BUMS". So I told the guys, and the next day all who showed at the front of the ranch were clean-shaven. Still the negative prevailed, and George began to complain as if our guys were the cause of all his problems.
I said, "Is this any way to treat friends? How can you listen to a bunch of strangers?". He said they were not strangers. Then he told me something that stung, and I didn't repeat it to anyone. After asking me how we got our money when so many of the men did not have jobs, he let on that he thought Charlie was foolish for giving away money.
"Was he foolish for giving it to you?"
He said "Yes."
This time I was furious. I yelled, "Well, do you want us all to leave?", and he was so stubborn, and so mad, he said yes.
We took three hours leaving, cleaning, packing, and petting the dogs, and as the three-wheeler roared out of the drive with the last of us, the wind hit my face and I saw the whole crazy, crooked ranch in wet bolts of color, and felt like I'd lost my world.


(from Reflexion, by Lynette Fromme)

grimtraveller said...

Mon Durphy said...

Spahn wasn't really the "desert", it was in the Santa Susana hills but it was only 3 or 4 miles from Gresham St, now Barker was in the desert

Your question didn't make clear that you were referring to Spahn, I thought you just meant the general move to Gresham. I would have said what I said then elaborated with what Gorodish said. I was quite surprised when I read that in Squeaky's book back in 2018 because that's the only place I've come across that information.
There is a further significance to that move to Gresham though. One could see it as the beginning of the end for the Family because it's in that period that HS took shape, Tex took off, Dianne returned and the peace and love vibe dissipated and music and revolution moved to centre stage.

orwhut said...

I have Emmons book, that must be where I read it

That's the thing with this case, there's just so much information from so many sources, much unverifiable or without substantiation that it's often difficult to remember where one has seen a particular piece of information. I remember reading a newspaper story in which Sandy said that Charlie had dragged her around by her hair {she also said she deserved it for her moodiness or something like that} but try as I might, I cannot locate where I read it. It might have been on Cielo's site {there's tons of great newspaper items from back in the day there} or it may have been on Cats77's former site but it may not be either. All i know is that I read it somewhere. At the time it didn't occur to me to bookmark it. I was also sure that Susan had gone by the name of 'Sharon' for a while and I spent ages checking various books. It turned out to be in her autobiography which made sense but at the time, I didn't think that was where I'd seen it !

Peter said...

^^^^^^
great story bro

orwhut said...

Grim,
I wish I could help with the story about Charlie dragging Sandra around by the hair but I don't recall ever reading it. I'll keep my eyes open.
When the only Manson reference I had was Helter Skelter going back to reread something was easier. Now, with the www, paperbacks, hardbacks, ebooks, and blogs coming and going. Remembering where to look is sometimes more difficult than the search itself.

Matthew said...

I am wondering, in the Lynette account, does she say where they went directly after packing up? Gresham or Barker? I lent my copy out so I can't look. I would think that it could have been a combination of Lynette and Charlie's reasons for the Gresham move. Also, if you look at the Yellow Submarine house, it does not look two story. I wonder if she was talking about the spiral staircase house. I also wonder if the people talking to George about the hippies was Pearl and Shorty. Was that the beginning of his demise?
If your google earth Gresham, it is a drive through an apartment of condo complex. The street doesn't even have a street sign anymore.

Mon Durphy said...

In a few of the pics I've seen of Gresham it looks to be a decent sized structure you'd see almost anywhere in America at that time, what looks like a 1/2 acre lot, chain link fence, gravel or dirt driveway leading back to a good sized garage, un manicured lawn, probably typical of that area for that time

Matthew said...

There is a very good photo of the Gresham house on cielo.com and it is definitely a one story house. It has one window up in the peak so it could have had a loft or just high ceilings. So it would be interesting to know what two story house Lynette was talking about and which friend Bill could hook them up in it. Bill Vance again?
I don't remember ever reading about Sandy getting drug by her hair. She was an important meal ticket for charlie with her trust checks. I do remember him grabbing Gypsy and I think Diane said something about hair grabbing in her book.

DebS said...

We have a photo of the Gresham St. house here at the blog.

https://www.mansonblog.com/2013/04/my-interface-with-manson-family-by-sue_3.html

Panamint Patty said...

You don't say? Lol

Mon Durphy said...

I wouldn't put it past Charlie to slap any of the girls around but I don't think he went overboard with it with any of them, stuff like dragging by the hair, closed fist punching or using objects to hit them I just can't see him doing

Mon Durphy said...

Hey Deb I've noticed in a coulec of shots there's a white man who appears to be in his late 50s maybe early 60s standing in front of the house, he's conservatively dressed and wearing glasses, any idea who he is?

Peter said...

Did Sandy write that in one of her inserts to Squeaky's Reflexions ? Because I vaguely remember reading something like that.

Peter said...

BTW. That is a two story house. It has dormer windows and a side window.

orwhut said...

Isn't the style of the house called a Craftsman Bungalow? They seem to have been very popular at one time.

DebS said...

Mon, not knowing when the pictures were taken it's hard to say but it could be that one of the sheriff's got in the picture when they were taking pictures of the house for evidence.

Yes, Peter, I think it did have an upper floor. It was probably just a narrow attic room and didn't qualify as legitimate second story. I just looked up the building permit info and it says the home was 1 story.

Document Number(s)
1927LA28301

Record Description
Record ID: 20826982
Doc Type: BUILDING PERMIT
Sub Type: None
Doc Date: 09/28/1927
Status: None
Doc Version: None
AKA Address: None
Project Name: None
Disaster ID: None
Subject: None
Product Name: None
Manufacturer's Name: None
Expired Date: None
Receipt Number: None
Case Number: None
Scan Number: None
Dwelling Units: None
Comments: This document shows the following information: Type Const 1 = D; S
tories = 1; Units Total = 1.

Property Address(es)
21019 W GRESHAM ST
21019 GRESHAM

Legal Description(s)
Tract: TR 7589
Block: Lot: 32 Arb:
Map Reference: Modifier:

PIN(s)
195B109 77

Assessor Number(s)
2779-002-***

District Offices(s)
LA

Film RBF
Type: HIST P1177; 002; 0157

DebS said...

OT, the case of Michael Channels vs. Jason Freeman for the estate of Manson has been delayed, again. Freeman has filed an appeal to the judge's order that he take a DNA test to prove he is related to Manson. The appeal, filed in California's 2nd Appellate District, could take a year to be heard.

https://mynewsla.com/crime/2020/03/12/appeal-prompts-delay-of-trial-on-competing-bids-to-administer-manson-estate/

orwhut said...

I don't know what to think about those DNA tests. Mine said I was mostly European and a little bit African. About a year later they sent an update. They've taken away African and claim I'm a little bit Swedish. What I really want to be is a little bit Country and a little bit Rock and Roll.

Matthew said...

DebS said:
We have a photo of the Gresham St. house here at the blog.

I figured it was but not under Gresham or Yellow Submarine so not easy to find unless your one of the cool kids.(you don't say?)

Peter said:
BTW. That is a two story house. It has dormer windows and a side window.

The Craftsman Bungalow style houses are usually considered one story houses even though most have a loft or small room above. Some call them 1 1/2 stories. But could have been enough for Lynette to consider a 2 story and that is the house she was talking about. Just curious.

Peter said...

She's small. Probably thought it was a second story up there.

starviego said...


Another reference. Looks like Vance was given a pass.

Oct 5, 1969
--"Vance, an associate of Manson from prison, was arrested for stealing a gun from a car in Death Valley on October 5, 1969...."
[Chaos, Tom O'Neill, pg420]

DebS said...

Matthew said...
DebS said:
We have a photo of the Gresham St. house here at the blog.

I figured it was but not under Gresham or Yellow Submarine so not easy to find unless your one of the cool kids.(you don't say?)

I did a Google image search to find it, how cool is that!

grimtraveller said...

Mon Durphy said...

I wouldn't put it past Charlie to slap any of the girls around but I don't think he went overboard with it with any of them, stuff like dragging by the hair, closed fist punching or using objects to hit them I just can't see him doing

Squeaky testified in court that he'd thrown her right across the room. Dianne Lake is well known to have been beaten with a chair leg by Charlie as well as telling of an anal rape. Stephanie Schram got whacked across the face with a rifle butt in the desert because she wanted to go home. And Charlie had form when it came to woman beating ~ back in the 50s he admitted in court that he used to beat his wife. He wasn't even up for assault. Charles Manson is not someone that one readily defends from charges of women battering and I'm not talking "just" slaps.

grimtraveller said...

Peter said...

Did Sandy write that in one of her inserts to Squeaky's Reflexions ? Because I vaguely remember reading something like that

I don't recall it in the book. I was aware of it for a few years before the book was published. It's out there, somewhere !

Mon Durphy said...

All hearsay

orwhut said...

I've long been curious as to how much force Charlie applied when he beat Dianne with the chair leg and as to the size of the chair leg. Such a weapon could have killed her.

starviego said...

How much did he slap the men around?

The guy was a frikken' coward,.

Gorodish said...

grimtraveller typed:

Squeaky testified in court that he'd thrown her right across the room. Dianne Lake is well known to have been beaten with a chair leg by Charlie as well as telling of an anal rape. Stephanie Schram got whacked across the face with a rifle butt in the desert because she wanted to go home. And Charlie had form when it came to woman beating ~ back in the 50s he admitted in court that he used to beat his wife. He wasn't even up for assault. Charles Manson is not someone that one readily defends from charges of women battering and I'm not talking "just" slaps.

The list goes on......Manson beating the daylights out of Gypsy for rolling a conga drum down a hill in June 1969.....smashing Kitty Lutesinger in the face and knocking her into the fire, for the unpardonable offense of falling asleep during one of his sermons in Death Valley....beating up Simi Sherry for refusing to fellate Juan Flynn, also in Death Valley (Babs Hoyt did the dirty deed in fear, after watching Sherry take the beating)......nope, Charlie had no problem channeling his inner Ike Turner....

Peter typed:

Did Sandy write that in one of her inserts to Squeaky's Reflexions ? Because I vaguely remember reading something like that

The only Sandy excerpt I could find in Fromme's book about Charlie beating women was the Gypsy conga drum incident.

orwhut said...

Three things that I picked up along the way make it seem natural that Charlie would beat his girls:

Most pimps beat their girls.
Charlie took lessons in pimping from his fellow cell mates.
He ran his harum like a pimp's stable.

If the above items are true it would have been expected that he'd beat a occasional girl, if only to make an example.

DebS said...

Don't forget the assault on Danny DeCarlo's wife for which he was arrested along with Danny for committing. She soon decided not to press charges so the charges were dropped.

grimtraveller said...

Mon Durphy said...

All hearsay

Actually, well before the Barker arrests, Brooks Poston was corroborating Charlie's violence against Dianne, Mary Brunner and Sandy Good. And Squeaky is hardly going to paint Charlie in a bad light in court when she's trying to get him off being sentenced to death.

Doug said...

Sidebar - Manson Family released...
Genesis P. Orridge has passed @ 70

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/14/throbbing-gristle-and-psychic-tv-leader-genesis-breyer-p-orridge-dies-aged-70

Doug said...

Related, not released

beauders said...

I have an unrelated question Ringo Starr released a song in 1975 titled "You're Sixteen: you're Beautiful and You're Mine." That song always makes me cringe when it comes on. Was sixteen the age of consent in 1975? What was a thirty something or older man doing with a sixteen year old girl?

Doug said...

It's a cover version of a 1960 Johnny Burnette hit!

grimtraveller said...

It was certainly the legal age in England. It still is.
I have an auntie in Nigeria that was married at 15.

grimtraveller said...

beauders said...

What was a thirty something or older man doing with a sixteen year old girl?

I'm not so sure that it was written {or sung} from the perspective of a 30+ year old man.

beauders said...

Then what perspective was it written/sung from, Grim?

grimtraveller said...

beauders said...

Then what perspective was it written/sung from?

The written side, I couldn't tell you right now but in terms of Ringo's perspective, he was simply of that generation that covered songs that they happened to like, regardless of the lyrical import. His first couple of solo albums were packed with 'standards' and songs he said his Mum liked ! It's worth bearing in mind that on the Beatles first album there are a number of songs that they covered that were songs that had been hits by Black girl groups. Paul McCartney once pointed out that they didn't take notice of lyrics in those days. When commenting on the song "Boys" {interestingly, sung by Ringo on the album} he, by 1988, could see that a group of guys singing a song like that by the 80s would have raised many an eyebrow but in 1963, it was just a song they liked, with no thought to its meaning or any deeper meaning and no took it that way. Whereas when Soft Cell did a cover of Gloria Jones' "Tainted Love" in the early 80s, it comes across as a gay love song even though that's not inherent in the original. As the frontman and vocalist Marc Almond was gay, it carried a deeper resonance. By the 80s many artists covers of older songs vested them with meaning that hadn't really been obvious, if there at all, when those songs were written. Or at least, that's how many were taken.
So Ringo doing that song doesn't necessarily reflect anything pervy on his part. If the song had been written in 1973 I think it might be a whole different ball game. Funnily enough, it was written by the Sherman brothers who wrote a few songs for Disney movies.

beauders said...

Thanks, Grim