Monday, March 23, 2020

The Ballad of Little Patty, Part One

Original piece is here. She does link to and credit us where appropriate:

She is mentioned only three times in the pages of Helter Skelter, her name spelled as 'Madaline Joan Cottage'.

She was present at the November 5, 1969 'suicide' of John Philip Haught aka Zero aka Christopher Jesus. Madaline (or Madeline as other publications and websites spelled her name) was allegedly lying in bed with Haught at the Venice Beach house where several were staying. Haught picked up a gun and said he was going to play Russian Roulette and then spun the cylinder. He fired, instantly killing himself, although when police were finally dispatched to the scene they found the gun had been wiped clean of prints.

There is one photograph of 'Madeline Joan Cottage' in the pages of Helter Skelter, as well. She is standing beside the bed of a pickup truck, during one of the police raids at Spahn Ranch. Squeaky, Brenda, Sadie and Katie are sitting in the bed of the truck but only Madeline and Squeaky are looking at the camera.

Patricia 'Katie' Krenwinkel (far left), Nancy 'Brenda' Pitman
(lighting a cigarette), Lynette 'Squeaky' Fromme (center, looking
at camera), Susan 'Sadie' Atkins (in corner) and Madeline
'Little Patty' Cottage, standing beside the truck.

During the summer raids at Spahn Ranch, the October raid at Barker/Myers Ranches in Death Valley and the police report from Haught's suspicious shooting death in Venice, Miss Cottage alternately gave the names:

  • Madeline Joan Cottage
  • Shirley Amanda McCoy
  • Patricia Baldwin
  • Linda Lou Baldwin

Of course, everyone in the Family had alternate names - nicknames, aliases, pretend names, straight names. As I wrote in The Manson Family: More to the Story:
Nicknames, false names, even switching names - these were ways of shedding their skins, discarding past identities. Nicknames gave them an amorphous relationship with one another with a titular head – Charlie himself - as a fixed constant. Charlie never pretended to be Bruce Davis, or Bruce Bluestein. Charlie was Charlie. But the others could reinvent themselves at whim. Every day they could be a blank slate. For them, there was nothing nefarious about these changes. For Charlie, it was another tool of control. 
- The Manson Family: More to the Story by H. Allegra Lansing, Published June 2019 from Swann Publications

And:
Many accounts of the Family led us to believe Charlie gave his followers their nicknames. Sometimes he did (like Sadie) but often they were bestowed by George Spahn"... 
No matter who originated them, Charlie embraced the new names. After all, when you give people new names, you take away their past identity. They can belong to you. 'Oche' was probably easier to smack around than intelligent nature-lover Mary Brunner. 'Brenda' was stronger and braver than the surfing socialite Nancy, and eventually 'Katie' would be more likely to stab someone, than former file clerk Patricia Anne. 
- The Manson Family: More to the Story by H. Allegra Lansing, Published June 2019 from Swann Publications

When Sherry Cooper (aka Simi Valley Sherry, a 15-year old part-time horse groomer at Spahn Ranch) was arrested, she used the name 'Ruth Ann Huevelhorst' which was actually Ouisch's (Ruth Ann Moorehouse) married name. Switching names and playing with identities was definitely part of the Family's raison d'etre. But at some point, law enforcement did figure out who each person in the Family really was and the public learned about each of them.

That picture above of Madeline Joan Cottage shows her looking defiant, almost with a smile. Scrappy, short - maybe a tomboy? Her mugshots are even tougher looking:

Madaline Joan Cottage, aka Little Patty, arrested
in August 1969 at Spahn Ranch

Madeline Joan Cottage, arrested
at Barker Ranch in October 1969

She isn't one of Charlie's prettier girls. She was rumored to be one of Bill Vance's (true name possibly William Rex Cole) girls. She was called Little Patty and, according to her arrest record, she was indeed petite (just 5'2" and 100 pounds):

Shows 'Madaline Joan Cottage' as 5'2" tall, 100 pounds,
white female born May 27, 1946 in Sewickley,
Pennsylvania. The 'Linda LOJU' is a misspelling -
one of her aliases (given at Barker Ranch) was Linda LOU.

Allegedly, Ms. Cottage was also knows as 'Crazy Patty' in the Family and 'mean as a snake'. After her 'involvement' with Zero's death/suicide/murder, she left the scene. A passage in Ed Sanders' book The Family alluded to her having gone east with Bill Vance to Missouri and then having been hospitalized for a nervous breakdown.


s I began the process of researching this book (summer 2016), I was especially curious to know what had become of all the Manson Family women - obviously we know about the ones who were/are incarcerated (Susan, Pat Krenwinkel, Leslie, Squeaky, Sandy, Gypsy) but I was profoundly intrigued about the lesser-known women. The ones who haven't spoken publicly about their time with Charlie. The ones who have kept under the radar.

I didn't intend to 'out' anyone who has led a law-abiding and private life since the bloody shenanigans of 1969 but I did manage to locate some of the women. I know where Ruth Moorehouse is. I know where Mary Brunner lives. I found fairly solid traces of many others. But I never found anything on Madeline (or Madaline) Joan Cottage.

And then, just before my book went to press, I read this blog:

In it, the author documents a series of newspaper articles that were published in the Stanberry Headlight, a publication based in western Missouri. The author (Neal Sheehan - not the Pulitzer-prize winning journalist, but a local reporter who just happens to have the same name) explains that he heard, in 1971, that a group of hippies were running a local farm in nearby McFall, Missouri. He went out to meet them and interview them, and encountered three young people at this farm: two women, one man. The man and one of the women (a women who identified herself as LINDA BALDWIN) were friendly. The other woman, identified as PATRICIA BALDWIN, was decided UNfriendly, even warning the others not to trust anyone who came around snooping.

It turns out that 'Linda Baldwin' was none other than Manson Family member Claudia Leigh Smith and 'Patricia Baldwin' was our own Madeline Joan Cottage. The man was a young man from California - not clear who he was, but does not appear to be anyone associated with the Manson Family during the time of the murders and arrests.

So, we have two Family women using two of the aliases previously used by Madeline Cottage. Hmmm.

Then, to get even wilder, we discover that the farm is actually being leased by BILL VANCE aka William Rex Cole aka Bill Van Sickle aka Billy Vansicki aka Duane Schwarm or whatever the fuck his name d'jour was. Vance/Cole (personally I don't think any of these names are his true one) had gotten himself ordained as a minister from one Youth-for-Life ministry based in Florida. Then Cole rented the McFall farm and property under the name of Youth-for-Life, acting as Nubian Farms. They were trying to grow tomatoes and other produce, but the way they set up the plants wasn't conducive for growing and never bore much fruit.

Also, in this blog series, we learn that Sergeants Whiteley and Gunther (the investigative team for Gary Hinman's murder) arrived in McFall to try to locate the whereabouts of a recorded tape, purportedly in Cole/Vance's possession, which included an audio reenactment of the murder of Hinman by the Family! However, by the time the investigators landed in Missouri, Bill Vance, Little Patty, Claudia Smith and the other young man were gone. Ed Sanders later learned that Little Patty aka Crazy Patty had gone demented, burned down a building on the farm's property, and Vance  called her parents in Pittsburgh, who retrieved poor Madeline and checked her into a mental health facility in Memphis, Tennessee.

Vance and Smith, who had just delivered a baby girl in late '70 while living in MIssouri, had fled back to California where they soon married. Records show they divorced in '78. I know Claudia Smith's whereabouts, as well as that of her daughter, Dawn's. But again, out of respect, I feel no need to reveal that information. Dawn, the now-grown child, certainly hasn't done anything to warrant scrutiny by the Mansonphiles and her mother's crimes are long, long in the past (a drug arrest, among her Manson Family-related arrests).

But Madeline, Madeline - wherefore art thou Madeline? Will it CREEP you out to learn that one of the items that investigators found at the scene of the abandoned Missouri farm was a letter, sent from some Manson affiliate in California to the gang at Nubian Farms, which read:

That's really something Patty leaving. I sure as hell hope she keeps her mouth shut… Don't take any chance with Patty. I don't know the whole story but from what you wrote in the letter it doesn't sound too safe… You take it easy. Be careful. I don't know what Patty's trip is. Don't take the chance. She could (blank) you up. 
- Letter from an unnamed party, summer 1971

As my research went on and on, from 2016 into 2017 and even 2018, during the process of writing my book, it confounded me that I found literally ZERO trace of Madeline Cottage. Zero! Not one little whiff, not one iota, not one tiny clue. She seemed to have completely disappeared.

As I prepared to launch the book last summer, and found this information about the goings-on in western Missouri, I worried that Bill Vance (who was definitely involved in the murder of Shorty Shea, so not someone to be trifled with) might have done something to Little Patty? Was she silenced, so as not to testify about what REALLY happened when Zero died? Vance was also at the Venice Beach property when poor John Haught 'took' his own life. Is there any chance that her parents didn't send her to a mental hospital in Memphis but that something far more nefarious happened to this young women?

I'm a researcher, and one of my tools in finding information (and particularly people) is genealogy. So, I decided to try to discover where Madeline Joan Cottage was, by looking for her on ancestry sites. I tried both variants of the name Madeline/Madaline. I adjusted dates of birth, and locations. I included the middle name. I omitted it. And then I tried looking for anyone named Madeline Cottage who had been arrested under the names of any of Little Patty's aliases. Nothing came up under 'Shirley Amanda McCoy' or 'Linda Lou Baldwin' but when I searched for aliases under the name of "Patricia Baldwin" I got a 'hit' for a P. Baldwin, who was photographed in the pages of a 1964 yearbook in the Pittsburgh area.

I had to look at this photo a few times, asking myself - could it? Was it? Look at the eyes… the chin? Was this our Madeline Joan Cottage?

It is, folks. I have found her. Her name is or wasn't Madeline Joan Cottage. It is Patricia Joan Baldwin. Stay tuned - I have more to unlock and reveal! Stay tuned as we continue this series…

Patricia Joan Baldwin, 1964



67 comments:

starviego said...

"That's really something Patty leaving. I sure as hell hope she keeps her mouth shut. …
- Letter from an unnamed party, summer 1971"

Sounds like she had a lot more to tell about the crimes of the Family. Like more murders.

Gorodish said...

Wow!! Once again your sleuthing just blows me away!
I've always wondered what happened to this one after the Missouri farm gig. Can't wait for part two!!

Proteus said...

As so many people have been enigmatic recently on this list I will comment the following. I was once heavily involved in TLB snooping, and made contact with one or two people who were directly involved with some events of the time (sorry, privacy rules).

What I learned was not a lot, all I think raised here and elsewhere, and to a large degree contradictory. Par for the course. However, one thing sticks in my mind; from an email I quote lil patty scares me the most of all, shes creepy.. [...] ... she's dangerous. Apparently in July 2007 she was ok, 'up in Oregon'.

Mind you, the same informant told me that Lil Patty went back to the scene of the crime (Cielo). I also heard elsewhere that the bloody footprints found indicated very small feet and that Cappy had the smallest feet as did/does Elf. Well, you decide - I tend to take much of what I heard and hear with the contents of the ZipaquirΓ‘ salt cathedral.

Hats off to Matt for observing privacy too - after all these years people (and their families) deserve a little peace.

Unknown said...

So you found where Ruth Ann and Mary resided. Did you talk to them or just verify their residences?

orwhut said...

The article at this link https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/photos-from-the-vault/article185291003.html
Says Chuck Summers had up to seventeen alieses. Who to believe?

orwhut said...

I seldom see a hair style similar to the one in Patty's class picture without thinking about a red head who sat near me in study hall. I seldom think about the red head without hearing a boy who sat behind her whisper "..., you shore have a pretty a$$". It still makes me smile.

AstroCreep said...

Matt- the original article posted March 21st. Is that 2020 or another year? Curious when part two is coming out if so and also curious about the book and if that’s already been released.

Torque said...

Excellent stuff here. Looking forward to next part. Proteus, of course it has been assumed that the bloody bare footprints belonged to Susan Atkins. Did the investigators ever measure her foot to compare?

It is also believed, based upon blood type evidence, that Sharon Tate was on the front step. Her sister Debra once remarked that Sharon wore a size 6.5 shoe.

orwhut said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
orwhut said...

The Kindle edition of The Manson Family: More to the Story, is $3.99. It was a quick download.

Matthew said...

The Madeline Cottage is also a type of floor plan for cabins.

Dan S said...

As Orwhut said, Charlie had aliases. I believe there's a difference with the girls' as his were purely to fool authority and not to lose identity. It seems the makes didn't play the lose your name/identity game so much, even the younger ones like Paul and Brooks.
Part of the pimp/whore mentality I'm sure

Dan S said...

"Males" not "makes" sorry

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

When I saw the name,
πŸ‘‡
H Allegra Lansing on this
blog-post, I said to myself,
"Where do I know this name from"?
Ah-Ha, this is the lady on Twitter that "liked" one of my Charles Manson Case Tweets.
Here is the text of that Tweet.
πŸ‘‡
"JD,
Suzan LaBerge is a very complicated person.
Her boyfriend was a
biker/Satan Slave named
Joe Dorgan. She was into drugs/ect.

I don't believe she set-up
The LaBianca's for murder.
It is though very BIZZARE why she supported
Charles "Tex" Watson.

The OJ Simpson Case
6:24 PM · Sep 16, 2019"

And here is the actual Tweet
πŸ‘‡
https://mobile.twitter.com/nitrini1950/status/1173769560652038144

Of all of the Charles Manson Case Tweets I've tweeted, I wonder why she "liked" this specific Tweet?

On another situation....lol.....I can envision this scene:
πŸ‘‡
Matt sees this comment and says:
πŸ‘‡
Oh no, not MGN3 again....🀦🀦.......
Matt's wife comes over to console him with a big grin😁 on her face and says:
πŸ‘‡
"AND THE "HITS" JUST KEEP
OOOOOOON COMIN.....LOL

Mario George Nitrini 111
---------
The OJ Simpson Case

orwhut said...

Dan,
You must be right about the intent of Charlie's AKAs. Ms Lansing herself, titles the section where she gives a brief history of Charlie, "Son of Man". Surely she didn't mean to contradict what she'd said previously.
Whut

Matt said...

AstroCreep said...
Matt- the original article posted March 21st. Is that 2020 or another year? Curious when part two is coming out if so and also curious about the book and if that’s already been released.


Allegra sent me the link on the 21st, so I assume right when it went live. Maybe she will check-in here and answer herself.


brownrice said...

orwhut said...
The Kindle edition of The Manson Family: More to the Story, is $3.99. It was a quick download.


...and full of factual errors.

Gorodish said...

brownrice typed:

...and full of factual errors.

Yup. Whenever I see "Windee Buckley" used as a source, red flags go up.

H. Allegra Lansing said...

Hey everyone - Matt thought I should pop in and maybe answer your questions. I would prefer to do that at my site - you can comment at my original blog at https://www.mansonfamily.net/news/the-ballad-of-little-patty-part-one - I'll be more likely to check that frequently and respond. But just to address the questions raised here so far:

I posted the blog on the 21st and sent Matt the link a little while later.

I know that Charlie used aliases with law enforcement and others, but within the Family he didn't have a nickname like the women did (or some of the men, like 'Clem').

I know that 'Windee Buckley' true name L** Sau***** is probably full of shit which is why I prefaced the quotes attributed to her. I do think she is correct about some things, such as Vance/Cole using her truck to rob gas stations and Charlie punching her in the face. My book isn't "full of factual errors" (I spent three years researching and writing and obviously worked my tail off trying to present a true and accurate story) and where I thought the person cited might not have been accurate (lots of inaccuracies for instance in Barbara Hoyt's many statements over the years) I address that and warn the reader not to take it as rock-solid.

I published my book last June and have been working on creating the audio version. I have about 44% of it up at the site on audio now, the rest will follow between now and July.

I did not speak with Ruth Ann or Mary, although I do know where they reside.

I also know exactly where Little Patty is and it's not in Oregon. I plan to continue this blog series within the week. For me, the biggest mystery is solved (I literally feared that Cole had killed her in Missouri for knowing what really happened with Zero or with Shorty or with God knows whatever other crimes he had committed) and knowing that she is alive and (hopefully) well means I can sum up the story. There was a hot minute there that I worried that some excavating in western Missouri was in my near future...

PS - in an earlier blog posted here, Beauders wanted to know if I knew Manson. I did not. I don't know anyone in the Family personally. Would love to speak with a good number of them, like many of you would. But the story of how and why I wanted to write my book is in my blog (the entry titled 'Sushi and Svengalis') if anyone is curious.

I am a researcher and author. I'm not a Mansonphile although I'm profoundly curious about cults and particularly how so many young women managed to lose themselves in this situation. I've loved reading this blog for a few years and hope that some of you will also follow my writing. In the meantime everyone, please stay well. I truly wish you all good health in the weeks and months to come.

AstroCreep said...

H. Allegra Lansing,

Thanks for the insight and for the countless hours/years of hard work to get the material published. I view most Manson material as having an agenda- after reading the article on your website, I found it interesting and not trying to fulfill any specific agenda other than your stated curiosity about the women. Please let Matt (and/or the blog) know when your audio version is completed. I‘LLC purchase immediately.

brownrice said...

Hi Allegra,
why (in your book) do you continuously confuse David Smith (the founder of the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic) with Roger Smith (Manson's SF parole officer)? I realise that they both share the same (incredibly rare) last name, but (despite what a couple of conspiracy web sites say) they're not the same person.

xreles said...

Thank all who answered!
I take it's ~ eww yuck wish ~
minus the yuck.
eww-wish.

So this guy is saying it right at 38 secs, Right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OxaVsydCYc&feature=youtu.be&t=34

orwhut said...

When the name Roger Smith comes up, my first thought is usually of Ann-Margret's late husband.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Nice job Matt. it sure looks like her.

Doug said...

I'm Doug Smith and, I manage mixing those two up once in a while too!

I gotta say that your "dripping sarcasm" in reference to our shared/rare surnames made me choke on my yogurt just now.

Thanks for the laugh during these "Isolation Blues"

Cheers

Doug said...

STFU!!!

Anonymous said...

Speaking of lost people I feel that Manson must have more children out there who maybe don't want to come forward. What is strange is how could he have so many girls and yet so few children? I would not want to make anyone come forward or out anyone who did not want to come out.

DebS said...

Macy, it's hard to say. The women had multiple sex partners. They probably didn't know who the father of their child was at the time. It wasn't like today where a DNA test can be taken to positively know who a child's father is. By the time of the arrests, most women wouldn't have admitted to Charlie being the father of their child.

Even Mary Brunner, when she was questioned about Gary Hinman's murder, wasn't sure if Charlie was Michael's biological father but he was Michael's legal father because Mary named him on the birth certificate.

Here's an outtake of that testimony. Public Defender Leon Salter is doing the questioning.


Q You know Charlie Manson, do you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were Charlie's first girl in the family, weren't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You had Charlie's baby, is that correct?
A I had a baby.
Q It's Charlie's baby, isn't it?
A He belongs to himself.
Q Pardon?
A He belongs to himself.
Q You called him Michael Manson, didn't you?
A For a birth certificate, yes.
Q The baby did have a father, I assume; is that correct?
A Most babies do, yes.
Q And the father is Charlie Manson, is that correct?
A The legal father is Charlie Manson.
Q The physical father is Charlie Manson, too; isn't that correct?
A That's hard to say.
Q You accept the father as being Charlie Manson; isn't that correct?
A I gave the baby a last name to get him out of court.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

2 issues.

Thank you Ms H. Allegra Lansing for your corroboration about Joe Dorgan being a Satan Slave
πŸ‘‡
https://mobile.twitter.com/FamilyMtts/status/1242173282398371841
I've known it for quite-a-while.

grimtraveller:
It's highly unlikely that you know what my "reputation" is.
Let's just leave it at that.
Like I've said before,
I comment the way I do for
"MY LEGAL REASONS"

Mario George Nitrini 111
--------
The OJ Simpson Case

Peter said...

6.5/10. Would still tap.

David said...

MGN3333 said: "I comment the way I do for "MY LEGAL REASONS""

There are three possibilities here:

1. You are getting remarkably bad advice from some attorney.
2. You have personally concocted some odd legal theory and applied it to yourself.
3. You hide behind this statement because you enjoy the attention.

Pick one.

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...

David (The Lawyer)

None of the above David.
Try again.

Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case

PS David:
Ask Matt to post what I emailed him pertaining to the former National President of The Hells Angels

H. Allegra Lansing said...

Hey folks - part 2 of my installment on Little Patty is here: https://www.mansonfamily.net/news/the-ballad-of-little-patty-part-two

Thanks for the interest, everyone!

bucpaul2812 said...

H.Allegra Lansing, fascinating reading! I can't help but wonder how none of her classmates recognized her after the fact. Especially when you consider that "Helter Skelter" was a best seller and that photo of her leaning on the truck was featured inside. That pic was taken around 1969, correct? Looking at the yearbook photos, especially the one caption "Hey Pat!" taken circa 1964, now if *I* were one of her classmates reading HS in 1976, I would have been inclined to think "Isn't Madeline Joan Cottage a dead ringer for Pat?" Despite the five year period between graduating high school and Spahn/Barker, she clearly looked the same (if not that bit more grubbier).

I'd like to know if any of the class/faculty at that had any input regarding Pat/Madeline, or is this possibly addressed in the next installment?

grimtraveller said...

Mario George Nitrini 111 said...


grimtraveller:
It's highly unlikely that you know what my "reputation" is.
Let's just leave it at that


Blimey, someone's a bit jumpy. I haven't even commented in this thread yet !
But while I'm here....

Here is the text of that Tweet.
πŸ‘‡
"JD, Suzan LaBerge is a very complicated person.
Her boyfriend was a biker/Satan Slave named Joe Dorgan. She was into drugs/ect.
I don't believe she set-up The LaBianca's for murder.
It is though very BIZZARE why she supported Charles "Tex" Watson"


2 issues;
51 years on, we still await anything that demonstrates what is said about Joe Dorgan to be true/factual/verifiable. Until that is forthcoming, it will forever remain in the same camp as that of Tex and Wojiciech/Jay being drug buddies.
Secondly, there really is nothing remotely bizarre about Suzan LaBerge supporting Tex Watson. Not when one factors in their conversions to Christ.

MacyGrant said...

I feel that Manson must have more children out there who maybe don't want to come forward. What is strange is how could he have so many girls and yet so few children?

He learned how to pull that off from all those rock stars who had numerous women in multiple countries and few kids to show for it.

brownrice said...
I realise that they both share the same (incredibly rare) last name

It is actually a pretty rare last name.....among Burundi tribesmen !

Vera Dreiser said...

If she hasn't consented to you exposing her like this, something you're clearly teasing out here, it's going to be pretty repulsive. Just like the 0ld Days of this blog outing members or merely associates of the Family who'd never been convicted of any crimes.

DebS said...

Well yeah, Vera, if H Allegra Lansing is correct. There's a chance she's wrong, plus, her current name has not been published.

AustinAnn74 said...

Wow, that girl looked mean even back when she had that lacquered helmet.

orwhut said...

I've always wondered whether Patty had on a cap in that photo or if it was some kind of hair treatment. Thanks Ann.

starviego said...

"H. Allegra Lansing said...
Hey folks - part 2 of my installment on Little Patty is here.."

Thanks for your great research. Interesting that Little Patty was in the Drama Club. A lot of the Manson girls had been trained to take on roles.

Vera Dreiser said...

DebS said...
Well yeah, Vera, if H Allegra Lansing is correct. There's a chance she's wrong, plus, her current name has not been published.

And if she's wrong, how's it gonna help the poor woman who's just been falsely id-ed as a Manson Family member? If she's correct, you think the world -- especially her high school crowd -- is never gonna stumble upon these blogs or whatever they are and figure it out? Either way, sorry to see that this blog is back in the business of ruining lives. And, of course, as promised by Allegra, we get to see "recent" pictures in next installment. Shameful.

H. Allegra Lansing said...

Just an FYI: I will not be naming, outing or exposing ANYONE here or elsewhere. I began this quest simply because I was legitimately concerned (having not been able to find one bit of information on 'Madeline Joan Cottage' since 1971) that something terrible had happened to her - perhaps at the hands of another former Manson associate. The research that I completed satisfied my curiosity about this woman, while raising the legitimate question of why she had never been properly identified in the past 50 years. I think we can all agree that the reason that blogs like this exist is because there is a NATURAL curiosity about the Family. I completely agree that she should remain a private individual and I have no interest or intention in contacting her or any other Manson Family member. In my book, I raise the idea of moral imperative - that I hope that survivors of cults will speak out about their experiences, in order to better educate and protect others - but I never make the argument that they MUST do so or that any of us should attempt to convince them to do so.

As to one of her former classmates discovering this information - as user bucpaul2812 wrote, "I can't help but wonder how none of her classmates recognized her after the fact. Especially when you consider that 'Helter Skelter' was a best seller and that photo of her leaning on the truck was featured inside."

I do agree that it is not in the best interest to share the recent photograph of Patricia that I found and I will not be including it in the conclusion of my blog series. I do still encourage most of you to read the final installment (next week) about how I was able to use genealogy to find the resolution to the questions I sought - because it's a great tool to use to unlock mysteries about 'missing' people. Maybe someday someone can figure out who Bill Vance / William Rex Cole REALLY was, for instance.

Lastly, I would suggest that if you don't like the direction that this website or the blog of mine that they shared, is going in - Vera? - don't follow. From prior comments I see that you seem to hover here simply to attempt some kind of moral high ground above us 'shameful' curiosity-seekers and researchers. Yet, you're right here with us, and offering nothing of value as an alternative. Just finger-wagging. Isn't your finger tired?

Vera Dreiser said...

H. Allegra Lansing said...
Just an FYI: I will not be naming, outing or exposing ANYONE here or elsewhere.

Oh please! You already have. Not sharing her latest name sure doesn't take back what you've already published. Spin it anyway you like but if you genuinely viewed these ex-cult members as victims -- particularly a woman with a known history of mental illness -- you wouldn't subject them to the public scrutiny when anyone with a working knowledge of the internet can now use to track them down. The fact that you present your work as some type of public service is revolting.
And the finger wagging is exactly why Vera comes on here. That's neither here nor there and certainly doesn't absolve you of your horrible indifference to this woman and her family.

starviego said...

H. Allegra Lansing said...
"I have no interest or intention in contacting her or any other Manson Family member.."

Why not? She's a big girl. She can say 'no' to an interview request. Plus she may have essential info that she is ready to reveal. We'll never know unless we try. Plus she ain't gonna live forever. So go ahead and do it.

orwhut said...

What??? NO PICTURE OF PATTY TODAY!!! The main reason I started following this blog is that I wanted to see how the girls turned out.
PATTY, IF YOU'RE READING THIS PLEASE SEND US A PICTURE.

starviego said...

"She was present at the November 5, 1969 'suicide' of John Philip Haught aka Zero aka Christopher Jesus. Madaline .. was allegedly lying in bed with Haught at the Venice Beach house where several were staying."

On the other hand, Patty Baldwin may have excellent reason to take her secrets to the grave:

Manson Case Files Box 12b pg98of358
"... a slight young man who held Christopher Jesus' head as he lay dying, said he is convinced the death was not a suicide.
He said when he heard the gunshot, he entered the bedroom and found a young woman, another Manson follower, holding the gun lightly by the trigger guard.
"She told me: 'Jesus shot himself,'" the young man said. "But she had this strange faraway smile on her face, as if she were saying to me: "his time had come, time for me to shoot him.'
"You have to understand what those people believe --'That you are me, and I am you' --to realize how their minds interlock, how she could have killed him and then said he did it." ...
He said that two nights after Jesus' death the young woman stared glassily at him for several hours, while running her thumb across the blade of a long knife."

Peter said...

I would like to hear from Brooks Poston.Im pretty sure he lives in Washingron State and you can google him and get his address and even his pbone number.

Matthew said...

I appreciate the research that people do on this blog, like H. Allegra Landsing and others. That is why I go to this site. I am not sure why people would spend/waste their time here if not interested in the case and what has become of the former members. Thank you

Lester Burnham said...

Please continue with your excellent and fascinating story as planned, picture and all.

Ignore the isolated admonishing of some self-appointed guardian of imagined morals (who might just think differently if one of her loved ones had been an un-avenged victim of this murderous clan).

Just because the Police were too preoccupied with the big fish at the time it does not mean the minnows who have never atoned should be forgotten. As the muddy pond they swam in has cleared with time this woman, amongst others, has stories that need to be told. Who knows she may hold a clue to catching up with others who more than likely also have blood on their hands like Bill Vance.

Proteus said...

I think that the issue is wider than outing people who did or may have done bad things a long time ago. Given the age of all involved in the sorry saga they will have children and grandchildren who may be completely unaware of what their parent or grandparent did or may have done. I say 'may have done' because they is often no certainty about who said or did what. Christopher (Zero)'s death is a case in point.

Do we really want to wake up kids who may be in school or college to the enormity of their grandparents' actions?Do we want to visit the iniquity of the fathers [and mothers] upon the children unto the third and fourth generation?

This blog got a whole lot better since Evil Liz went her way, and I feel we have moved on from that initial desire to out everyone. Elsewhere, Brett paid a [very] heavy price for outing Clem. The Bible (from which I just quoted) has God saying 'Vengeance is mine' (i.e. his); I suggest it should not be ours. Let us be historians, yes - but not moralists or jurists.

orwhut said...

Proteus,
Who's Brett and what price did he pay for outing Clem? If I ever knew, I've forgotten.

Proteus said...

Orwhut

I've been on these blogs a long time, under different names. Hence the moniker Proteus.

Brett was a blogger from Iceland who threw himself wholeheartedly into researching aspects of the TLB saga. He was good, and applied academic and journalistic principles. Good like Cats and DebS – serious, worked hard, used original sources. Published a lot of well-researched info on his blog. Then one day in 2010 he disappeared. Col knows about this, if he's up to commenting.

Turns out Brett had 'died' - I hesitate to say under mysterious circumstances because I don't know under what circumstances. Shortly before his disappearance he had published the actual name and whereabouts of Clem (now well-known). It caused a lot of debate on various forums, and inevitably there were those who were quick to draw a link between the outing of Clem and the death of Brett. Not me, I simply am not competent to comment, but my instinct says there’s probably no connection.

The whole thing reminds me of the line in that misquoted letter that said “I would not like what happened to Joel to happen to me”, which led to people thinking that Joel’s suicide in a South London Hotel was somehow attributable to Bruce, CM or whoever. It wasn’t, and it demonstrably wasn’t, but there are still those who insist it was.

Anyway, Brett’s site was located at www.mansonfamilytoday.info, and bits of it can be accessed through Wayback (I just checked). I’d try dipping into Wayback in late 2009.

Others here have been around on the blogs as long as and longer than me and may be able to comment further. I know Col wanted to take over some of Brett’s resources – whether he did or not I don’t know. But he’d be an ideal person to comment.

Terrapin said...

Bret unfortunately died of a heroin overdose. He had been an addict for some time and his death shortly after 'outing' Clem was purely coincidental. His website was the best source for manson family info at the time and In my opinion he was a good guy and deserves nothing but praise for his invaluable research

ColScott said...

First of all Vera is a dried up scrap whore and anyone listening to her should be banned from the internet. She is unloved by her own family and she is garbage.

Bret overdosed on heroin, Adam Gabriel didn't kill him. He started a fan club with some of the tour goers here on the blog that continues today. The Secret Handshake is picking up a baby by one small arm and swinging them around in circles very fast till they spew

orwhut said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
orwhut said...

Proteus,
Thank you very much. The part about Iceland and the heroin overdose sound familiar. I think I was following a blog or two when Clem was outed and may have read many more details than I remember.
If Cats and DebS ever decide to find Jimmy Hoffa, his funeral will follow shortly.

Terrapin said...

Col when are we getting the rest of your Final Words i've enjoyed them and been looking forward to the rest

Peter said...

that is the old handshake the new handshake is jostling a small girl on your lap while groping her.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Starviego I Googled the quote you gave about the slight young man relating what he saw at the death of Zero and I found it on a posting on Cielo Drive.com. I don't know what the Manson case file is that you cite.

On the subject of Patty's photo being in Helter Skelter leaning against the truck and why didn't anyone from her past recognize her, I wouldn't have been able to tell that was her from that photo. She looks quite different in that photo to me.

H. Allegra I am looking forward to the rest of the story from you. Thank you for your research. These kinds of posts are one reason I like this site-new discoveries. If you decide not to publish a recent photo of her that's ok. Either way it's up to you.

starviego said...

Mr. Humphrat said...
"I don't know what the Manson case file is that you cite."

See here:

http://www.cielodrive.com/manson-case-files/BOX-12b.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0dot08RE233_UOtTFiCnbN_gwwxThwPMNaYxeepllKTF-BoaFouzgmB4g
pg99of358

It's from an LA Times article of 12-10-69.

Mr. Humphrat said...

Thanks Starviego...does anyone know who the young man was?

JC said...

That’s who I also think of.
Well, him and “the space octopus” (thank you Cleveland Brown)

Ajerseydevil said...

Hello Allegra I enjoyed your book something I found particularly interesting was about the reason Manson was never violated on several serious charges maybe involved law enforcements believe the family was going to war with the Black Panthers there has to be some reason his parole was never violated

starviego said...

Part Three of Allegra's series, including a recent pic of Baldwin:

https://www.mansonfamily.net/news/the-ballad-of-little-patty-conclusion

grimtraveller said...

Dan S said...

It seems the males didn't play the lose your name/identity game so much, even the younger ones like Paul and Brooks

Hmmm......Tex, Clem, Zero/Christopher Jesus, Scotty, "Little" Larry Jones, Sunshine, Soupspoon,TJ....
One of the major hallmarks of acid use in the period from 1965 till the end of the decade was erasing your identity/ego and many did. Some were able to return from some uncharted zone of inner space. Many did not.

H. Allegra Lansing said...

Just an FYI: I will not be naming, outing or exposing ANYONE here or elsewhere...The research that I completed satisfied my curiosity about this woman, while raising the legitimate question of why she had never been properly identified in the past 50 years.....I completely agree that she should remain a private individual....In my book, I raise the idea of moral imperative - that I hope that survivors of cults will speak out about their experiences, in order to better educate and protect others - but I never make the argument that they MUST do so or that any of us should attempt to convince them to do so....I do agree that it is not in the best interest to share the recent photograph of Patricia that I found and I will not be including it in the conclusion of my blog series

Well, there's some good old fashioned bullshit right there because that's exactly what you've gone and done.
It's a different matter altogether if a Lynn Fromme or a Dianne Lake publishes a book because even if they wish for privacy, they've put themselves out there to some extent and therefore if someone recognizes them out shopping or swimming or walking in the forest, well, to a certain degree they're fair game. But the old lady whose picture you printed without her knowledge or permission or understanding, desire or blessing is not in that category and your justification that "oh well, she might have murdered Zero and if she did...." can never fly. Even if a couple of people in their 70s decided to come forward to LAPD and say "OK, we were witnesses to his murder and she did it" there would still be no justification in what you've done. If tried and found guilty, then fair enough. But you should be reminded that the death was ruled officially a suicide and just because many may have had misgivings about for 51 years does not make you some righteous crusader or give you the freedom to do what you have done.
That's poor form, Allegra.
Vera Dreiser was right.

grimtraveller said...

ColScott said...

Vera is a dried up scrap whore and anyone listening to her should be banned from the internet

So ban me.
She was absolutely bang on the money on this one.

Mr. Humphrat said...

If you decide not to publish a recent photo of her that's ok

Not merely OK, mandatory and honourable.
Publishing that photo is in the same category as revenge porn.

Lester Burnham said...

Ignore the isolated admonishing of some self-appointed guardian of imagined morals (who might just think differently if one of her loved ones had been an un-avenged victim of this murderous clan)

So, let me get this right, a person you were great mates with half a century ago murdered someone in the most disgusting of ways that has become legendary and notorious and because one of my loved ones was a victim of your friend, that means it's OK for me or someone completely unconnected to me or any of the victims to invade your privacy, publish pictures of you and speculate all kinds of shit ?
Be careful what you sign, Lester.

Just because the Police were too preoccupied with the big fish at the time it does not mean the minnows who have never atoned should be forgotten

The minnows who have never atoned ?
You should move to one of those villages in those regions of the world where some of the villagers will come and burn the house and everyone in it of anyone even suspected of being a witch or stealing a pair of 2nd hand knickers from a market stall.

As the muddy pond they swam in has cleared with time this woman, amongst others, has stories that need to be told

Yeah, that's right. She forfeited any freedom your constitution might have conferred on her at birth because she once may have hung with people that killed.

Who knows she may hold a clue to catching up with others who more than likely also have blood on their hands

And she may not. Can you tell us everything about people you knew half a century ago ?

grimtraveller said...

starviego said...

H. Allegra Lansing said...
"I have no interest or intention in contacting her or any other Manson Family member.."


Why not? She's a big girl. She can say 'no' to an interview request. Plus she may have essential info that she is ready to reveal. We'll never know unless we try


Now, that would have been the way to go. To some extent, similar moves played a part in prompting Dianne Lake to write her book. She didn't have to do it but it obviously grew on her that it would be better to write her own story than be outed.
Whoever this woman is and whoever she might once have been, just basic respect for a human being demands that if you're curious, you request an interview and if the answer is 'no' have the stones to accept the 'no' and move on.

Dan S said...

As Orwhut said, Charlie had aliases. I believe there's a difference with the girls' as his were purely to fool authority and not to lose identity

The Soul ?

H. Allegra Lansing said...

I spent three years researching and writing and obviously worked my tail off trying to present a true and accurate story

Nicholas Shreck spent way, way longer than that researching his book and it is crammed to the gills with inaccuracies and let's not even start to talk about "Susan Atkins'" grand contribution to literary fiction, "The Myth Of Helter Skelter." And "she" was there !

DebS said...

Well yeah, Vera, if H Allegra Lansing is correct. There's a chance she's wrong, plus, her current name has not been published

The name by which she's known is published.