Monday, September 12, 2022

Steve Grogan Probation Report

This is a transcription of a probation report for Steve Grogan dated June 30, 1970. It was ordered by the court after Grogan pleaded guilty to Section 10551 of the vehicle code (driving without the owner's consent) involving a truck he had rented from Doug's U-Rent in Woodland Hills CA. Grogan had not been charged in the murder of Shorty Shea as of the date of the report.


The report has a lot of background information on Grogan, there are details about him that I bet you never knew. It also explains the indecent exposure charge that led to him being committed to Camarillo State Hospital for observation. Grogan was charged with child molestation as well but the report does not address the molestation charge. The bottom line is that Grogan was not tried, much less convicted of either of the charges. The incident happened at his parents' home with adults present on June 11 1969. Ventura County terminated the case February 17 1970.

I've typed this report because it is not a great copy and is difficult to read but I'm also supplying a link to the actual report so that you can see I've faithfully transcribed it.





FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

PROBATION OFFICER'S REPORT


(As supplied by the defendant and substantiated in part by his father)

Defendant was born in Van Nuys, where he lived with his family until his early teenage years. Defendant last attended school at Simi High School, which he left after the 10th grade, at age 15. Defendant ran off with a young woman and lived with her for the next year. Upon his release from custody the defendant wants to try to get into college. He hopes to study communications or music. 

Defendant's father works for Holiday Hardware, Santa Susana. His mother is a registered nurse who is in college and studying social work. Defendant's 22-year-old brother and 15-year-old sister live with their parents. He also has a brother who is in the Highway Patrol Academy in Sacramento.

Defendant has never been married nor has he fathered any children. He has not served in the Armed Forces and has not registered with the draft board.

Until his arrest the defendant had worked as a ranch hand at the Spahn Ranch in Chatsworth. He received only board and room for his work. The defendant worked there since he was 16-years-old. It was there that he met and became associated with the "Manson Clan." Defendant has also worked as a service station attendant (for two months); a painter (periodically for six months); and a packer. At present the defendant has neither debts nor assets nor income. 


NARCOTICS AND INTOXICANTS

Defendant says he has used marijuana frequently in the past. He does not use alcoholic beverages.


ARREST RECORD:

SOURCE OF INFORMATION:

CII.

JUVENILE HISTORY:

6-5-67 LAPD- 602 WIC. 11530 H&S (possession of marijuana)- counseled and released.

8-12-67 LAPD- 484 PC (shoplifting)- 9-29-67, bail forfeiture.

4-5-69 SO Los Angeles- Grand theft money and prowling- 4-8-69 released insufficient evidence.

5-20-69 LAPD- 487.3 (Grand theft auto)- D.A. Reject.

6-11-69 SO Ventura- 647A/314 PC (child molesting and indecent exposure)- Referred to Ventura County Probation Dept.

(Ventura County Probation Department referred the defendant to Camarillo State Hospital for observation. The defendant escaped from the hospital after being there for only a few days. The probation case was terminated on February 17, 1970. Defendant said that his offense occurred while he was visiting his parents' home. He was wearing rat-eaten trousers with a large hole in them. He said his genitals accidentally became partially exposed while he was playing with the children. The mother of one of the children observed this, and after talking to her neighbors called the police. The defendant categorically denies that he deliberately exposed himself.)

8-16-69 SO Los Angeles- Grand theft auto- D.A. reject.

10-10-69 SO Independence- 272 PC, 496 PC, 12020 PC, 10851 VC, Escape from state mental hospital- 12-5-69, Dismissed in the interest of justice, released to Los Angeles County on their homicide warrant.

12-5-69 LAPD Warrant 487.3 PC; 10851 VC - present offense. 


PRESENT OFFENSE:

On June 3, 1970 defendant appeared in Department-D of the Los Angeles Superior Court and entered a plea of guilty to the charge of violating section 10851 of the vehicle code (driving without owners consent), deemed a misdemeanor, matter has been continued to instant case for probation and sentence hearing.

The deputy probation officer assigned to this case has not been able to obtain a transcript of the preliminary hearing. From the district attorney's file, the following appears to have occurred:

On October 4, 1969 the defendant rented a 1966 one-ton truck from Doug's U-Rent, 20956 Ventura Boulevard, Woodland Hills. Rental period was for one day. Defendant did not return the truck. The truck was recovered by the highway patrol in Death Valley on October 14, 1969. The truck has been returned to the owners. Defendant rented the truck under an assumed name, Tufts.


DEFENDANT'S STATEMENT:

Defendant's written statement is attached to this court report. He writes that he rented the truck knowing that he could not possibly return it within 24 hours. Defendant writes, in part, "Now I know this was wrong, but at the time I was not thinking, and this is the price I have to pay. If I was granted one more chance, this mistake will never happen again. I plan to go back, and live with my parents and go to school and try to work my way through college."

Defendant told the probation officer that he rented the truck to deliver food and camping equipment to Charles Manson and others who had gone to the desert. They gave him money and asked him to buy various items and bring them to Death Valley. On the way there the truck got stuck in sand and rocks. The defendant said he was unable to get it out. He said he neglected to summon help immediately or to inform the owners of the truck's condition. Several days later the defendant was arrested.

Regarding the future, the defendant said he will try to get into college. He wants to return to the home of his parents and stay there. The defendant realizes that his present troubles have been caused, for the most part, by his association with less than desirable companions. Defendant categorically denies involvement in any further criminal activities. He also said that he was not a member of any "Family." He was living at Spahn Ranch before Charles Manson moved there. Defendant denies that he was a follower of Charles Manson in any fashion.


INTERESTED PARTIES:

Doug's U-Rent informed the probation officer that the defendant made full restitution for the damage to the truck and the expense incurred in its transportation. This restitution amounted to something over $700.

Defendant's father said he would like to have his son return home. He said the door has always been open for his son. The defendant has been away from his home since he was 15-years-old. Regarding the defendant's emotional condition, his father believes he is emotionally balanced. He said his son has always been a very idealistic boy. The probation office asked the defendant's father concerning the charge of child molesting and indecent exposure in Ventura County on June 11, 1969. The father believes that the exposure was unintentional. He said his son always liked children and has never shown any signs that he would do harm to them.


Attached to this report is a letter from the investigating police detective.


EVALUATION:

The defendant left home at age 15. For a year he lived with a woman six years his senior. When he was 16 years old he went to live at the Spahn Ranch, where he was given board and room for the work he did. Defendant has lived without adequate supervision for the past three years.

Defendant appeared to be quite cooperative during probation investigation. Probation officer could discover no signs of emotional imbalance. Regarding the present offense, the defendant is fully admitting that he could have obtained help to free the truck so that it could be returned to the owners. Defendant has made full restitution for the financial damage to Doug's U-Rent.

The defendant's offense has been deemed a misdemeanor. At the time of his sentencing, the defendant will have spent approximately eight months in custody.

The best plan for the defendant would be to place him under supervision. He should be required by the court to remain in the home of his parents until allowed by the probation officer to move to a different residence. Hopefully, this will have the effect of removing the defendant from associating with less than desirable companions. Certainly such association is a major factor in the defendant's involvement in the present offense. Furthermore the defendant should be required to seek and maintain full-time employment or school.


RECOMMENDATION:

It is therefore recommended that probation be granted under the following terms and conditions:

1. Spend a suitable time in county jail.

6. Not use or possess any narcotics or narcotic paraphernalia and stay away from places where addicts congregate.

7. Not associate with known narcotic users or sellers.

15. Seek and maintain employment as approved by probation officer.

19. Obey all laws, orders, rules and regulations of the probation department and of the court.

Maintain residence in the home of his parents until allowed to change that residence by the probation officer.


Respectfully Submitted,


Kenneth E. Kirkpatrick

Probation Officer


By H.L.D.

Harry L. Dawson, Deputy

East San Fernando Valley Office


(Dictated 6-30-70)

HLD:EJ (6)


I have read and considered the foregoing report of the probation officer.

Judge of the Superior Court.


48 comments:

orwhut said...

Excellent as usual, Deb. My tired old eyes really appreciate your work in typing the report.

TUFETI said...


hello! thank you, in almost all the entries I find new data, as in this case: I did not know that before finishing in Spahn he had already left home with a woman six years his senior!!
I am struck by the fact that in general he has very good intentions and is committed to the future and to the authorities, but in reality nothing is further from the truth.
With how brave and conceited they are seen in the photos, how they screw up at the first chance!
I hope my poor and forgotten English is understood

Torque said...

Great stuff, Deb. Thanks for this. Steve certainly made a good impression on authorities after several years of incarceration. His revelation of the location of Shorty's remains was no doubt crucial to his release.

prefeteria said...

Bugliosi: "The youth who beheaded Shorty Shea appeared to be a complete idiot."

Mr. Grogan was a lot savvier than given credit for.

Buntline II said...

Wasn't a member of any family, never followed Manson. Literally a couple of weeks later he's at the Manson trial, pulling faces with the rest of the gang.

The job of probation officer must have been an easy gig at that time.

orwhut said...

If Clem's voice is the one I think it is in Robert Hendrickson's films, I like his singing.

Rick C. said...

I'm taking the lesson learned by Grogan and I'm going to get rid of all my rat eaten trouser.

grimtraveller said...

prefeteria said:

Mr. Grogan was a lot savvier than given credit for

I don't actually think he was. His performance during the penalty phase was idiotic at times. He was trying to be a good, smart Charlie absolver, yet in doing so, ended up more or less corroborating Linda Kasabian's story of what happened after the 2nd murder squad had departed the LaBiancas. He was one of the Family members that demonstrated the prosecution's "domination" theory in true and living colour.
He was eventually convicted of Shorty's murder ~ when there wasn't even a body to prove Shorty was dead ! It was his big mouth and bragging {about a beheading that he never even did} to Paul Watkins that did for him there ~ not particularly savvy. Watkins later wrote that Grogan bragged that it was he that tried to kill Watkins, which, if true, says much about his sense at the time.
He was highly fortunate to escape being indicted for the Tate-LaBianca conspiracy. It wasn't his savvy that achieved that, but rather, Aranda and the Californian laws of accomplice incrimination without corroborating evidence. He is in a similar situation to Charles Watson's standing regarding the Shea murder.
I think the truth of Steve Grogan is not that he was some demi-genius pretending to be an idiot so as not to be taken seriously, but rather, that he was a kid that, like Leslie and thousands of others in the USA like him, fell into the orbit of the counterculture, endless and easy sex, marijuana and acid and reacted in much the same unpredictable way that many, many people in the same scenario reacted. His reaction was a particularly dark and destructive one and eventually when in jail, surveying the debris of his life, had to grow up.
Steve Grogan, it seems to me, got wise in prison, not for any other reason than the game was over and he had to get his head together and take stock of his existence while he was still young and unhardened enough to do so. He could easily have become like Charlie ad infinitum.

D. said...

You really have it stuck in your brain that these people didn't act on their own free will and already knew exactly what to say and not say. Not that Charlie wasn't totally in on it too.

Grogan at 15 was smarter than you are now at your age in 2022 and if you ran into him in an ally back then you'd see how quick that dumb act vanished and how serious he could be.

You sound like a stuffy old white man from SF who wants to be a YouTube professor. You should move from England. Your queen died recently, so you can start wearing boxers.

Everyone and their brother fell into the "orbit of the counterculture, endless and easy sex, marijuana and acid" including the wonderful victims. You forget about the massive amount of crime they were all committing. Back when Charlie was still on the prison yard singing Englbert songs.

D. said...

It's the the damnest thing when people still see poor ol' Leslie as a victim who was dragged into this rather than an instigator. She was jealous of Linda catching Bobby's eye, in turn went off with guys she knew he was jealous and feared. She went off with 88 George Knoll. Meanwhile Linda seems to be fucking the guy who can get most violent over a dope deal gone bad, maybe after being with the two wimps she was selling acid with prior. So you have two idiots competing and two women instigating.

Now you know why TEX made sure Leslie was in that car and convinced her stupid ass it was all for him, who didn't give two shits about. She would have switched loyalty the SS or even Beausoleil before him.

It sounds crazy, but this is what happened and Manson littery had little to nothing to do with wither Linda the instigator or Leslie the instigator. He was off with his own business. But he still took the rap for these two.

starviego said...

D. said...

It sounds crazy...

Agreed.


Manson ... still took the rap for these two.

Poor Charlie!

starviego said...

D. said...

...Manson littery had little to nothing to do with wither Linda the instigator or Leslie the instigator. He was off with his own business.

Is it possible that the rats have eaten straight through your jeans and into your brain?

Loegria15 said...

Boy, I can sure appreciate the time and effort it took to transcribe all that printed material! It's bad enough when it's handwritten and a clear copy, but when it's a fuzzy copy, doesn't matter how well-printed or -written it is.

I curtsey in your general direction to honor your magnificent skills!

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

It's the the damnest thing when people still see poor ol' Leslie as a victim who was dragged into this rather than an instigator

Leaving aside the nuances and differing contexts of that word 'victim', when it comes to murder, Leslie, as she well knows, was not a victim. She was a willing participant who then got cold feet at the moment of truth at Waverly, then had her flagging will {the free one, you know...} fortified by the chief killer on the 2 nights of murder, then found she couldn't stop once she got started, then later bragged about what she did, then omitted any involvement, then admitted it, then pled not guilty, then lied about some of it then admitted it and so on and so forth.
However, to say she was an instigator is to do sheer violence to both the word and its meaning.
The irony of your brand of free thinking D, is that you've become Charles Manson during the trial, adopting the same easily demolishable arguments that he was going to use during the trial if he had been his own lawyer, the same ridiculous arguments that he tried to have dominate the penalty phase ~ the same arguments that netted him the death penalty. The straights on the jury saw right through it.
Fortunately, this is just a blog. There is no death penalty here ! 😄

She was jealous of Linda catching Bobby's eye

Well, as her official biographer, you would, of course, be privy to such nuggets ! 🤫

Now you know why TEX made sure Leslie was in that car and convinced her stupid ass it was all for him, who didn't give two shits about.....It sounds crazy, but this is what happened and Manson littery had little to nothing to do with either Linda the instigator or Leslie the instigator. He was off with his own business. But he still took the rap for these two

Denny, you have your tongue so far up Charlie Manson's rectal region, you really ought to start your own colon cleaning company. 💩
It could go far {no pun intended.....}.

grimtraveller said...

Buntline II said:

Wasn't a member of any family, never followed Manson. Literally a couple of weeks later he's at the Manson trial, pulling faces with the rest of the gang.
The job of probation officer must have been an easy gig at that time


I note that one of the probation recommendations was that he spend a suitable time in the county jail. In "Helter Skelter" Bugliosi says this "suitable time" was a year.
He also said that knowing that Clem was hanging with, and part of, the Family, he wrote to his probation officer, asking that Clem's probation be revoked and that the guy refused to act. He later said that the officer told LAPD that he was scared of Clem.

starviego said...

Great work on this thread, Deb!

The link isn't working for me. Anybody else having this problem?


--------------------------


6-11-69 SO Ventura- 647A/314 PC (child molesting and indecent exposure)-

(Ventura County Probation Department referred the defendant to Camarillo State Hospital for observation. The defendant escaped from the hospital after being there for only a few days. ...

8-16-69 SO Los Angeles- Grand theft auto- D.A. reject.

10-10-69 SO Independence- 272 PC, 496 PC, 12020 PC, 10851 VC, Escape from state mental hospital-



If Grogan was charged on 10-10-69 for escaping from the nut house, why wasn't he charged with this on 8-16-69?

orwhut said...

Star,
The link to Clem's probation report only gives me a message saying "This site can't be reached". I only tried it to see just how fuzzy it was. Deb's typing was undoubtedly better.

DebS said...

The problem with the link seems to be on the blog's end. It may be the previous problem we had a few days ago is rearing its ugly head again. I will contact Matt and GW to see if they can figure it out. Thanks for letting me know.

DebS said...

Starviego said

If Grogan was charged on 10-10-69 for escaping from the nut house, why wasn't he charged with this on 8-16-69?
---------

Grogan was arrested under the name of Grant Mollan with a DOB of 12-10-1948 during the Spahn Ranch Raid. It could be that they did not put two and two together so they did not know that Mollan was Grogan.

Rock N. Roll said...

Good stuff DebS! I’m really enjoying your amazing work. I can’t wait for the next post!

Peter said...

The picture of Clem sitting during rhe Spahn raid postd in Cielo's photo archives shows him wearing pants that appear to have a large hole in the crotchel area. Vindication.

DebS said...

Good eye, Peter! It's the picture of Grogan, Craven, DeCarlo and Manson sitting on a white trailer.

http://www.cielodrive.com/spahn-ranch-photo-archive.php

I've never been sold on the idea that Grogan was a child molester but without any documentation we've had to depend on what has been written in books. I'm happy to clear this up.

Fayez Abedaziz said...

Why sure, he's a good guy, why, he's a musician, over there and well, gee, he said, this pitiful creep, this caveman Clem Crap Grogan, said that he's not that Clem in those days when he initiated the blow to Donald Shea's head that actually renedered Shea incapable of a good defense. And would most probably have led to brain/skull damage and death, anyway. Screw you Clem and screw anyone that makes excuses for you. I woulda kicked your ass if I saw what you did or heard about it, if I was in that garbage dump with you sleazy 'men,' there.
How about that! So, now he's okay cause he, like a couple hundred thousands guys that play an instrument and do some singing is alright now, looky see there, Clem,
the jackass
This killer murdered, along with several of the ugly guys that hung around Spahn Trash Ranch an innocent fella in a most cowardly attack.
How many times do I see, almost at every trial, whether it's a showbiz person or other that sing the same lame tune/lie.
"What I did then, your honor, doesn't define me." Oh, okay, what you did 6 months or a year ago doesn't define you. Ah, it defines, oh...Mick Jagger, oh maybe Nixon oh, it defines Beavis or Butthead, yeah, it defines Fayez, over there, the Fool On The/a Colorado hill,that's the ticket, so we will hold someone else or something else responsible for the assault, and/or rape, and/or murder you committed. Or at a bar or concert, which is more and more these days.Yeah, you're innocent kinda of sort of. But ah,
when Leslie or Susan Atkins or Brother Charlie says something along those lines, they're made fun of and denied parole and everyone says, well, they're crazy and
Leslie and Susan are responsible for what they did. And Charlie had a hand in killing Shea, so...
so what? primitive face and mind Crapclem is a 'scatterbrain,' so release him judge.
But, that's what the hell they've been saying about the good, honest Leslie and Susan from the trial, to sentencing till NOW. What's your problem?
Here, listen to me good:
the damn difference between what this lowlife Clemcrap Ogr is, as Susan and Leslie told us why they are now aware of their past actions, is-the confusion and delusion of their minds, the influence on them of the 'hip' psychedelic culture, the drugs. The drugs Susan said and how she wants to in some ways to explain how they had her living in a 'you know,' high, just about any drug, and the loyalty to Brothetr Charlie and the ways of living at Spahn hip town.
Now, what about loyalty from this creep for what the gang at Spahn gave him?
I'm not being sarcastic when I say, they gave him pot, the dinners with them, the basically free sex with numerous of the dumb, most of them, anyway, girls.
So, after leaving prison, that's it? No defense at all of the Family from Spahn from this dirty head?
Why not? Because this clown is empty, like so many in society. They have nothing, they have nothing to give, they won't want to give, they're nothing
You're so nice, here in the courtroom and so, have a nice year or 50. But, we will actually, sentence Susan and Leslie to life without Parole, though that was not the sentence, so the Parole boards and the haters in the governors office do new sentencing as if it was a courtroom and now we do the sentencing, Think about it.
You read what I said, oh, now you can get it, spare me the excuses. By the same bull criteria, Brother Charlie and Pretty Leslie and Cute Lovin' Susan should have been freed. Everyone does damage, like the clowns that were at Spahn and enjoying life there, for free, then they take off like a bunch of cowardly, drunken cockroaches. and goes their merry way. That pisses me off and makes me downright angry.
It's now Friday, think I'll have a toast to and a few good words for Brother Charlie, sisters Susan and Leslie.
And, a prayer and good thoughts to Prince Charles and for her Majesty, the good Queen Elizabeth.

DebS said...

Fayez, I used to think you were like an annoying itch that you shouldn't scratch in public. Now I think you're nuts. If it wasn't for Susan and her big yap the Family wouldn't have gotten arrested when they did. Now that's some Family loyalty.

Loegria15 said...

Fayez, your writing isn't bad but you lack restraint. Your posts are TL;DR.

Bharris said...

You're right, LWOP wasn't the sentence they received, they received the death penalty. So, when you think about that, they actually got lucky. I have my own thoughts about their sentencing and subsequent parole that four of them have technically been granted (although 2 of those people have been denied since which ... ???) and then been denied by the governor but your incessant screaming of how unfair it is and how others should be somehow remained loyal to them plus your weird obsession with a woman who has been dead since 2009 that you insist you met and had some kind of rendezvous with (which I seriously don't believe in the slightest ever happened.. Pretty sure the closest you've come to that is jerking it over her Google images from the 70s), not to mention your writing style is so off putting.... I usually ignore you but this latest comment trying to say Steve owed them loyalty after getting mixed up with them cost him years in prison... I think you may be suffering from some pretty heavy delusions.

Hey, but least Steve actually banged Susan instead of just fantasizing so he's got one up on you.


Bharris said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
grimtraveller said...

DebS said:

If it wasn't for Susan and her big yap the Family wouldn't have gotten arrested when they did

While I agree with the overall thrust of the point regarding her loyalty {all of the female perps were questionable in this regard}, and while Susan's big mouth played its part, I'd have to say that LE were onto Charlie and some of them from a variety of angles, around the same time she was flapping the lips.
When I hear Debra Tate and Anthony DiMaria going on about the Family being a criminal gang with people like Bruce and Pat playing key roles, I have to chuckle inside. The way their schtick fell apart from a number of directions, in such a short space of time, is one of the more fascinating elements of the story.
As a criminal gang, let's face it, they were pretty shitty.

D. said...

Susan blabbered because LE already knew and it was only a matter of time before they moved on. Better to be the first, cut a deal with the attorney and then put on a crazy act with Charlie as the figurehead. If you can't see part of her immunity deal was making sure he was made the focus was part of the deal. That is what Bugliosi wanted and EVERYONE needed. If she didn't, Bugliosi would still be struggling to get an indictment against Charlie while he was still being illegally held in Inyo County.

The wives of Gregg Jakobson and Dennis Wilson were questioned almost as soon as those murders happened. Of course LE knew.

Bruce played a key role in a lot of things, including things that had nothing to do with Charles Manson. Thing you know nothing about and never will, so the idea they were a sloppy bunch of criminals is laughable. In fact, in some degree they were good criminals and that is in part the reason why people like you are still wondering about things that are fictional.

But the core of the so-called Family weren't anymore criminal than everyone else was. Crime and drug dealing was everywhere.

There story IS the story of the 60s. What happened at Spahn happened everywhere.

Haight Ashbury started good. The LSD was pure, made by people who knew what they were doing. Then the demand got too great and all sorts of Hinman types were popping up. People manufacturing their own and not doing good jobs. Then it became a business (not that it always wasn't, LSD distributors were large organizing events to sell it) and the 1% bikers brought in harder drugs. It was so bad, it was a risk buying anything because there was a greater chance it was laced or fake. So you had addiction, distrust, violence. People went from getting free acid everywhere to now suddenly having to BUY it and risk getting ripped off.

No different from what happened at Spahn and when they got caught up with Hollywood. All of those people were doing their own drug dealing and Charlie only got involved when he was pressed to do so and according to the counter culture and underworld at the time, he did it all the way it should have been done. Nobody called the police in those days, nobody. That mentality was no exclusive to him.








Peter said...

"the idea they were a sloppy bunch of criminals is laughable"

Being locked up foe the past 50 years and until they're all dead was part of the plan .

grimtraveller said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grimtraveller said...

D. said:

Susan blabbered because....Better to be the first, cut a deal with the attorney and then put on a crazy act with Charlie as the figurehead....against Charlie while he was still being illegally held in Inyo County....Bruce played a key role in a lot of things, including things that had nothing to do with Charles Manson....Charlie only got involved when he was pressed to do so...

👅 🆙 🩲

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

Susan blabbered because LE already knew and it was only a matter of time before they moved on

There was absolutely nothing tying Susan Atkins to the murders at Cielo. So unless they were disciples of Peter Hurkos, the police could not have known.
Come to think of it, other than her own blabbermouthery, there's still nothing concrete tying her to Cielo or Waverly or, for that matter, the Hinman house. Kitty was hardly concrete. Well, to a good criminal....

D. said...

But she was there. She was in on it and it was apparent the second she was brought in on Hinman. Before even. It was going to spill out eventually and she knew it. The bloody footprint on the porch wasn't tying her to Cielo Drive? Well, then it must not have been her footprint huh? Ask yourself why that puzzle hasn't been solved.


...and if you think they didn't make it loud and clear that it was either play ball or die in the gas chamber than you really are a laugh and a half.

Getting the bullshit story out was the #1 priority. What was Caruso doing telling low level drug dealers what other low level drug dealers were telling him? Which resulted in one guy getting beat to shit because Caruso opened to his mouth about what he was saying. What sort of lawyer does this?

LE might not have known the exactly details, but they knew enough.

What was Dennis Wilson and Greg Jakobson's wife being interviewed for in the days right after those murders? They had Bobby Beausoleil living with them at some point including summer of '69 in the same area of Cielo and they knew Hinman too.

If you really think this case is in those little progress reports show everything that was going on, you are wrong.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

She was in on it and it was apparent the second she was brought in on Hinman

Cielo ?
You be dreaming 😴, friend !
There again, had Jess Buckles been on the ball, the crimes and the perps would've been connected within a couple of days.

It was going to spill out eventually and she knew it

Organized by Charlie, with chatterboxes as accomplices, it was certainly likely to. But Atkins didn't know it. She wasn't unburdening her soul in order to get a ticket to the gas chamber.

The bloody footprint on the porch wasn't tying her to Cielo Drive?

In retrospect it should have....but it never did.

if you think they didn't make it loud and clear that it was either play ball or die in the gas chamber than you really are a laugh and a half

Hey Denny, I'm a regular hoot.🤣
But it's no secret that there came a point where she was told they had enough to convict her and conviction meant sniffin' gas. She didn't want to die.

Getting the bullshit story out was the #1 priority

Given that this didn't even start happening until into 1970, you're onto your usual loser on that one.
The "bullshit story" as you put it is the only one that fits all the facts, has stood the test of time without being smashed on the rocks, and was constantly denied by the guy whose grandiose plan it was.

What sort of lawyer does this?

One that isn't going to ever be on the receiving end of the consequences of their actions.

LE might not have known the exactly details, but they knew enough

Eventually, they did.
You're always trying to fit a size 14 foot into a size 7 shoe. It works for a few seconds....then reality asserts itself and you cry with the pain.

If you really think this case is in those little progress reports show everything that was going on, you are wrong

They show bits and pieces. Obviously, they can't denote everything. A cursory read of your favourite book, "Helter Skelter," shows that.
Things were developing all the time, little by little. But as a conspiracy theorist and historical revisionist, you cannot acknowledge the changing nature of real life. You're one of the Calvinists of the Manson religion.

D. said...

Your answers are inadequate.

Caruso I guess was just bored.

The bullshit story hit like wild fire on Dec. 1st and "Two Nights of Murder" hit the press only 13 days later.

The bullshit story doesn't fit the facts at all. Nobody was doing what happened in the Tate house for any other reason except drug deals gone sour. Simply look at who all of these people were from Kasabian to Atkins and Watson. They were all involved in drug rings and so were the victims. The violence in the Tate house was happening all over Haight Ashbury due to the decrease in good acid and introduction to speed brought in by bikers and low-live drug dealers.

John Seger said...

Grim said "You're one of the Calvinists of the Manson religion."
This! LMAO 🤣 Grim, you are hilarious and on point 100%

D. said...

I'd rather be a Calvinist of the Manson religion rather that an idiot who swallows the Bugliosi poison or Leslie Van Houten propagandist.

John Seger said...

D, I think you took too much of that "bad acid" that you talk about.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

I'd rather be a Calvinist of the Manson religion rather that an idiot who swallows the Bugliosi poison or Leslie Van Houten propagandist

Well, so would I....
It must be awful to swallow discredited propaganda and poison in defence of someone that thought they were smarter than the practitioners of the law of the society that had treated him so badly at various points in his life, but ultimately got smacked down by that society {and its law practitioners} for being every bit as lousy as that which he criticized and harboured ill-will towards and could never be mature enough to admit he was wrong and got his just deserts. 🤒

The bullshit story doesn't fit the facts at all

I'd have a lot more respect for your position if you had the balls to acknowledge that actually, what came out was plausible. I'll happily acknowledge that the horse manure that came forth during the penalty phase, the copycat and the drugs theories are absolutely plausible. They simply aren't true. And because they are not true, they are easily demolishable. Your stand has been being demolished for half a century now and what is eternally interesting to me is that all the proponents of the alternatives contradict each other and crash and burn regularly.
You remind me of that episode of "The Twilight Zone" with Quincy where the astronauts crash and find their own bodies.

Your answers are inadequate

The day you find any of my answers adequate will be the day I turn into you {rather like you're being Charles Milles}.....and that's not going to be anytime soon.

The bullshit story hit like wild fire on Dec. 1st and "Two Nights of Murder" hit the press only 13 days later

The Dec 1st and 13th stories are unlikely to have convicted Charlie and even Bugliosi knew that. He knew there was more to where the evidence pointed. In reality, many of those involved did. But they knew that there were many guilty people walking the streets that had beaten justice and they couldn't see how Manson could be nabbed, even though it was not felt that he was innocent.
Incidentally, you should define your terms. When you say something like "bullshit story" please be clear exactly what you are referring to.
We wouldn't want to be talking at cross purposes now, would we ? 👏🏿

D. said...

Yes. Because what I say is so crazy and out there. Drug deals gone sour leading to violence in the summer of 1969 is so crazy and out there. Surely Helter Skelter is far more logical.

Hippie cult leaders convinces fairly intelligent people into trying to ignite a race war with Beatles records and LSD makes far more sense. Never mind the undercurrent of drug trafficking. I'm sure it's total coincidence that the girl Charlie knew for barely a month who went along with Tex on this grand plot to ignite all out war was apart of a drug ring in 1967. Total coincidence that Watson was dealing in 1967 and never stopped. We don't even need to get into Sebring and Frykowski.

In fact Kasabian was dealing with her husband. That $5,000 she stole also included about 60 tabs of acid. I wonder if those were inherited too.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

Because what I say is so crazy and out there. Drug deals gone sour leading to violence in the summer of 1969 is so crazy and out there

None of that is remotely crazy. It would be insulting to "things strange" to call it "out there". You're right in this: it was a fairly common occurrence in the USA and elsewhere right through the 60s. It still is.
As I said before, it is totally plausible. It, in theory, is utterly possible. Its very possibleness and plausibility is the very reason Manson and friends ran with it. Better to be associated with drugs than murder and Helter Skelter. Only a fool would dismiss its possibility.....without looking into it and all of its attendant packages. Only a trout would, on instinct, throw it by the wayside without having tested its robustness.
No, it's not a crazy or out-there idea. It's just not a true one. Yes, it could have happened that way. But no, it did not.

Surely Helter Skelter is far more logical

Despite the attempt at sarcasm, that's actually a really interesting question. Was HS far more logical ?
Well, here's a thing. It matters not one jot whether HS was far more logical, more logical, logical or utterly illogical. All HS has to be is is. Logic doesn't come into it.

Hippie cult leaders convinces fairly intelligent people into trying to ignite a race war with Beatles records and LSD makes far more sense

If one deigns to understand countercultural thinking, thinking outside the box, thinking once one has had one's social, mental, and spiritual horizons expanded by a heady combination of acceptance and psychedelics and the reality that there have long existed many different ways of seeing the world and its history and different strands of thought, then yeah, it makes abundant sense.
Funny thing is that Charlie himself blamed LSD and the Beatles !

Never mind the undercurrent of drug trafficking

That there was a drug undercurrent is a bit like saying there was a Thursday last week. Tell us something new.
Oh, I'll tell you something new that you can tell us ~ a verifiable drug connection between anyone at Spahn and anyone that was murdered at Cielo or Waverly. I challenged you on this back in December of 2015 and like Diana Ross back in '71, {wait for it......} I'm still waiting....

I'm sure it's total coincidence that the girl Charlie knew for barely a month who went along with Tex on this grand plot to ignite all out war was apart of a drug ring in 1967. Total coincidence that Watson was dealing in 1967 and never stopped

Both were so small-time that I'm embarrassed for you trying to make them Howard Marks.

Cooltide said...

Grim, Now "Mr Nice" , that is a great read.
RIP Howard Marks

Dan S said...

I just witnessed SA interviewed on her way from the courtroom about what she thought about LK. She sounds ultimately dumb and unsophisticated as she parrots CM's "she looked pretty."

D. said...

First of all, in regards to Watson, Kasabian and the others in the Spahn Ranch circle being "small time" drug dealers. The fact is, the line between "small time" and "big time" were slim. Drug trafficking was still in it's infancy. Some ways it was easier to deal, because LE was clueless. Some ways, it was harder because it wasn't as organized as it is today.

Watson's drug dealer partner from Denton (the secret one) got busted smuggling $60,000 worth of Peyote and Watson was living with him on and off between Rosina, he lived in the building next to them on Franklin.

The 1% motorcycle clubs were actually trying to control it more than the mafia.

The Hells Angels were the biggest distributors in Haight Ashbury, bring in $50,000 a week for Owsley Stanley. Read up about Don McCoy and how the Hells Angels took over his commune once one of them started to manufacture and sell Angel Dust. Then look at Spahn. The Straight Satans were trying to corner that little jurisdiction of Venice/Santa Monica. Which on a side note, makes me wonder about Hinman.

So the leap from small to big wasn't that great....and how do small timers get big? Wipe out competition. Jay Sebring was "big" in that he had a bit more money and a good front going.

You also had dry spells. So these people would buy off each other and when Massaro got $50,000 worth of coke and Sebring buys all or half of it, well you can see why he would be a target.

Dan S said...

Thr mansonoids were idiots. There was not the level of criminal sophistication needed. No sense makes sense was real for them

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

First of all, in regards to Watson, Kasabian and the others in the Spahn Ranch circle being "small time" drug dealers. The fact is, the line between "small time" and "big time" were slim. Drug trafficking was still in it's infancy

You make it sound like this only began in the 1960s.
Jazz musicians, and Mexican and Black communities had had little trouble finding drugs when they wanted them, for decades. And LE had been after "drug dealers" for decades.

Some ways it was easier to deal, because LE was clueless. Some ways, it was harder because it wasn't as organized as it is today

You could say that about real estate or general police work. But properties got bought and sold and the jails were full....


Read up about Don McCoy and how the Hells Angels took over his commune once one of them started to manufacture and sell Angel Dust

Yeah, all very interesting and shines a tiny light on the overall scene perhaps. But this has absolutely nothing to do with what was in Charles Manson's mind or how he communicated it to those that would come into his orbit and listen.

Then look at Spahn. The Straight Satans were trying to corner that little jurisdiction of Venice/Santa Monica. Which on a side note, makes me wonder about Hinman

Charlie tried pretty hard to master the art of obfuscation. With a great many people, it worked. It worked in the late 60s, it worked in 1970 and 71, it worked through the 70s and picked up again, big-time, from the late 90s and continues to work. You are one of its leading exponents.
But it didn't work in the courtroom. It didn't work with a dogged and equally egotistic ADA called Bugliosi. It didn't work with the jury. And it doesn't work with anyone that looks at the story objectively.
The in and outs of the drug scene play a part in the story, the same way the garbage runs play a part in the story. But neither are the story. And the more you try to pull it in, the clearer your obfuscation becomes.
You're like Adam in the garden of Eden when God asks him if he ate the fruit he was told not to eat. He doesn't deal with the question or the matter at hand, he replies "The woman you put here to be with me gave me the fruit...." ~ obfuscation. If you hold that story to be true, it tells you that obfuscation is one of the oldest things that human beings do. If you don't hold it to be true, it tells you that even ancient writers and thinkers were well aware of the art of obfuscating.
Children do it all the time. It is part of the tool kit of every criminal and if it isn't, they soon learn that it needs to be. No liar can survive without it. And what every obfuscator needs is someone willing to follow the tail and the urine and not look at the claws and fangs. Dang, even in the animal kingdom, there is highly inventive obfuscating going on. That's how the bigger animals eat a lot of the time and how some of the smaller, weaker ones survive.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

So the leap from small to big wasn't that great....and how do small timers get big? Wipe out competition. Jay Sebring was "big" in that he had a bit more money and a good front going

He had money worries, the same way Leno LaBianca had money worries. As for the leap between small and big not being great, it really depends on whom you're talking about. It certainly does not apply to Charles Watson or Linda Kasabian. If they were dealing drugs and they committed murder to wipe out the opposition, then why, at the moment of their point of "success" and glory did they not capitalize on it and go bigger ? Why did they scurry off to the further reaches of the USA ?

You also had dry spells. So these people would buy off each other and when Massaro got $50,000 worth of coke and Sebring buys all or half of it, well you can see why he would be a target

Trying to make these murders about drugs is, in my opinion, naive. And that's before we even get to the LaBiancas.
It's funny how history has kept repeating itself. The cops were given the keys to solve the crime less than 2 days after Cielo and dismissed it. Why ? They thought it was about drugs and followed their noses 👃{no pun intended}.