Monday, November 28, 2022

Oct. 20, 1969 Interviews

Photo courtesy of University of Nevada

 The LASD went to Inyo County to interview those arrested in the Barker Ranch Raids. They also interviewed Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston who were not arrested.

LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT

October 20, 1969

Information Obtained from Various Subjects at Inyo County Sheriff's Department


On 10/14/69 we interviewed POSTON, Brooks Ramsey; male Caucasian, 12/15/48, home address 408 Lee Street, Boger, Texas. He has lived at Barker Ranch, Panamint Valley, since October 1968. He worked at the Spahn Movie Ranch from June until October 1968.

He met MANSON, Charles in June 1968 at Dennis Wilson's residence at 14400 Sunset Blvd., West Los Angeles. Wilson is a member of the Beach Boys singing group. Charles Manson lived with Wilson for a while, and used his car.

Poston and Manson went to work at the Spahn Ranch in June 1968. At the Spahn Ranch, Poston met GOOD, Sandy; FROMME, Lynn; BLUESTEIN, Diane; and two other girls. Poston stated he saw the females at the Spahn Ranch in possession of numerous credit cards. Poston said that the credit cards were obtained by the females either by sex or by trickery. Poston thinks the girls were working as prostitutes but has not seen anything to substantiate this.

The girls used to obtain old vegetables from markets in the Simi Valley and the San Fernando Valley. Girls also used to obtain day-old bakery goods from an unknown bakery. The girls also used to solicit food from various churches and other charitable organizations.

Poston stated that at the Death Valley area locations, Manson used to tell the girls that they must have sexual relations with the men or he (Manson) would injure the girls.

Poston also stated regarding credit cards that most of the girls in the group are runaway juveniles and, to be accepted by Manson, the girls normally had to furnish credit cards to Manson. These cards normally came from parents of the runaway juveniles. Poston said he once gave a Texaco gas credit card to Manson, and someone ran up the charges in California and Oregon.

Poston stated that Manson once gave an old panel truck, faded blue or green, to the WKFL (Fountain of the World) religious order, Box Canyon, Chatsworth. This truck was obtained at an unknown location, Manson traded this truck to the cult so that some of the females at the Spahn Ranch would have some place to live. The females involved were GLUTZ, Sadie Mae; BRUNNER, Mary; and ROWE, Stephanie.

Poston stated that the group left Spahn Ranch in October 1968 after Manson had an argument with George Spahn. The group traveled from the Spahn Ranch to Death Valley in a converted 57 passenger school bus, that was bought for $750. The money reportedly was from Juanita's insurance refund. Manson took out seats, put in mattresses, and drove it to the Golar Wash area, Death Valley. The bus is presently at Barker Ranch.

When the group left the Spahn Ranch, FROMME, Lynette; SANKSTON, Leslie; and MEYERS, Cathy, were left behind for an unknown reason. The group arrived at Golar Wash area about Thanksgiving, 1968, in the school bus with about 20 persons on the bus.

Poston states that 2-Dodge trucks, both owned by BEAUSOLIEL, Robert, are in the Golar Wash area. One truck is a black Dodge weapons carrier that is at the Barker Ranch. The other is an orange Dodge power wagon which is parked at Ballarat. Both are probably registered to Beausoleil's wife, named Gail. Beausoleil reportedly traded a speed boat he owned for the two trucks. Gail Beausoleil was last at the Spahn Ranch in July 1968, possibly now living in North Hollywood.

Poston stated he saw Manson at the Barker Ranch about 9/25/69 in possession of a .12-gauge pump shotgun, and an "over and under" shotgun. Also, Manson had a .45 caliber Buntline, blue steel revolver. This revolver was reportedly owned by a person known as "Shorty." "Shorty", [later identified as SHEA, Donald]. Poston described Shorty as male/Caucasian, 38 years, 5-11, heavy build, with a beer belly. Poston last saw Shorty in September 1968. At that time Shorty was driving a blue, 1950 to 1956 Cadillac.

Poston stated that about 9/25/69, Manson told Poston to go to the foot of Golar Wash to pickup some auto parts. Poston drove from Barker Ranch to the foot of Golar Wash in the orange Dodge power wagon. At the foot of Golar Wash he assisted DAVIS, Bruce; MOLLER?, Grant; aka "Clem"; and a male/Caucasian, 16 years, known as "Scott" in loading auto parts in truck and returned to Barker Ranch.

Poston stated that when one Officer Pursell was at Barker Ranch, a BRENDA and RUTH ANN were the females that Officer Pursell spoke to, Manson was hiding in the rocks. After Pursell left, Manson took a double barrel shotgun, owned by Stanley Berry, and went into the hills and fired the weapon three times stating officers had been "jacking up his people."

Poston stated that VANCE, Bill, aka COLE, William Rex; had burglarized singer Jack Jones' residence in San Fernando Valley, and that a white-felt Western hat was at the Barker Ranch.

Poston stated regarding the stolen vehicles that a dune buggy, yellow or gold with a black vinyl top, was driven into the Barker Ranch by "Gypsy" (WRIGHT, Kathleen Kay) about 9/24/69.

The gray rail dune buggy was driven to the Barker Ranch by "Tex" (MONTGOMERY, Charles) just prior to 9/24/69.

The blue metal flake dune buggy arrived at Barker Ranch the week of 9/24/69, unknown who drove the vehicle in.

The dune buggy with "Yankee Go Home" on rear was driven to Barker Ranch by Manson, accompanied by Gypsy.

The red Toyota was driven to Barker Ranch by Bruce Davis.

 


The 1969 Ford was brought to the foot of Golar Wash by Gypsy and MCCANN, Brenda. Vehicle was possibly rented by Brenda McCann with a stolen credit card. The 1969 Ford was also driven around Golar Wash by Manson. The blue or green stock Volkswagen owned by SMITH, Claudia, was driven several times by Bruce Davis.

A white, flatbed truck arrived at Golar Wash about 9/15/69. Truck had a wing tank, tools, welding tanks, leopard skins, and brand new tires in wrappings. (This truck may have been from Spahn Ranch).

The red Toyota had a 40 gallon gas tank mounted on rear.

The interview was concluded at 10:00 p.m., on 10/14/69. Poston said he could be contacted again if more information is needed. He is known to Deputy Ward - Inyo County Sheriff's Department. Poston may be used to testify in court, although he said he would not testify against Manson.

This writer then talked to MCCANN, Brenda aka PITMAN, Nancy. She was very vague in her answers. When questioned about her actions the past few weeks, she stated she had been at her parents home about 3 weeks ago. She stated she had been driving to her parents home in Malibu by Leslie Sankston, who was enroute to Santa Monica. She then said her father drove her to a friend's home in Malibu. The friend, by her description, is TERRY MELCHER, 22146 Pacific Coast Highway, Malibu. (He is the step-son of actress Doris Day.) Brenda stated she stayed the rest of that day at Melcher's, then hitchhiked to San Fernando Valley and stayed a couple of days in the mountains near the Nike? Missile Base, Brown's Canyon, Chatsworth. She then went to the Topanga Canyon area, went to the "Corral Bar", 2034 North Topanga Blvd., Topanga, and met a person known to her as "Evan." She then was transported to the Death Valley area about 9/25/69 in a blue metal flake dune buggy, very fancy chrome, etc. The dune buggy was driven by "Evan."

Brenda stated she was at Barker Ranch with MORSE, Rachel the day the Park Ranger and CHP officer were at the ranch.

Brenda stated that when she was home about three weeks ago, she purchased gasoline for Leslie Sankston's car with a credit card of her father's. She stated purchase was made at a Texaco station probably at Pacific Coast Highway and Crosscreek Road, Malibu. She stated she either lost card after purchase or left card in Leslie Sankston's car.

The interview was halted at this time as subject caught herself in a lie and refused to make any further statement.

At 10:30 a.m., 10/15/69, the writers attempted to interview BLUESTEIN, Diane Elizabeth, but she refused to make any statement.

At 10:40 a.m., 10/15/69, the writers interviewed SANKSTON, Leslie, who would not make any statements regarding the groups activity, other than stating she had not driven a motor vehicle in a year.

At 10:50 a.m., 10/15/69, the writers interviewed MORSE, Rachel Susan, who would make no statements other than she had never ridden in any of the dune buggies or the trucks in the Death Valley area.

At 11:00 a.m., 10/15/69, the writers attempted to interview PUGH, Sandra, but she refused to make any statements regarding the groups activity.

At 2:00 p.m., 10/15/69, writers interviewed WATKINS, Paul; 1/25/50, 5-5, 130 lbs., brn hair, brn eyes, CII #3-507-517, who currently lives in Shoshone area of Death Valley. Watkins used to be a member of the "family". Watkins had been previously arrested with the family by Antelope Valley Station on 4/25/69, when a Dodge power wagon he was riding in was impounded as a stolen vehicle. Regarding this Dodge power wagon, Watkins stated Charles Manson had tried to buy the truck from a person in Canoga Park for $1,500. The person who had the truck had no paperwork on the vehicle. Truck was later stolen by LIPISETT, David, and it was driven to the location where all the persons were arrested in Antelope Valley Station for GTA, file #469-02595-1173-029. The truck was stolen from an unknown address on Parthenia Street, west of Desoto Avenue, Canoga Park, and may have already been a stolen vehicle at time it was taken.

Another truck, described as a white stake body truck, was driven to Death Valley from Spahn Ranch by Bruce Davis. This truck was later sold by Davis.

A dune buggy that was in control of "Tex" Montgomery at Barker Ranch, had a stolen engine in it. The engine was hidden under a pile of trash at Barker Ranch, the day Officer Purcell was at Barker Ranch. After officers left, "Tex" had a man known as "Leon" from Henry Biggs' house do some welding on the transmission mounts on the dune buggy, and the stolen engine was installed and the dune buggy was driven to Willow Springs.

The family bought tires, oil, gas, and auto accessories with stolen credit cards, and items were brought to desert. The girls in the family furnish credit cards to Charlie Manson, these cards usually belong to parents of the families.

A Phillips 66 oil credit card was used in Baker by Bruce Davis about 10/6/69. This same card was used in Las Vegas by Davis to fill 5 x 55 gallon drums of gasoline. These drums were returned to Death Valley and left at the Anderson Ranch.

 

Thanks to Surf Bat

Watkins also saw the "Dougs-U-Rent" stake body truck in Death Valley.

Watkins said Manson gave him $300 to buy supplies with. This was done about 10/5/69.

The shotguns mentioned in the memo written by Inyo County Deputy Cox arrived in Death Valley after Sandy Pugh was released from hospital. (This would have been after 9/16/69.) Guns were brought to Death Valley by Brenda McCann and Sandy Pugh.

John Flynn told Watkins on 10/14/69, that checks were taken from the Spahn Movie Ranch.

Watkins said that about May of 1969, a 1968 Dodge van camper owned by "Juanita" was traded to a person named "Bill" at the Hancock Station across the street from the Hacienda Hotel, Las Vegas. The van camper was traded for an International 4-wheel drive Scout, white in color. The Scout was returned to the Spahn Ranch where it was abandoned about July 1969 due to clutch trouble. This vehicle had Nevada plates when abandoned.

Watkins also stated that "Juanita" received a $3,000 check of some kind, probably from her parents, cashed it, and bought two dune buggies from Butler's Buggy Shop, Chatsworth.

Regarding the large school bus parked at Barker Ranch, Watkins stated it was purchased from Mintern P. Collins, Cheseboro Road, Agoura. It was bought for $500, the money coming from the father of Sandy Pugh who lives in Boulder Creek, California.


Watkins said that most of the family lived at 31062 Mulholland Highway, Malibu Station area, in February 1969. During this time, William Rex Cole stole a white 1967 VW and left it parked on a fire road two miles off Mulholland Highway. Also, during this time, Charlie Manson took a large wing tank from this area, and hauled it from the area in a 1936 Ford pickup, orange with an Oldsmobile engine. This pickup is owned by DECARLO, Danny. After this incident, Manson was arrested by Malibu Station for an unknown offense.

Watkins stated that the red Toyota recovered at Death Valley was stolen from Van Nuys by Bruce Davis. Two days after taking the Toyota, Davis bought about 95 gallons of gas in Ridgecrest, using a stolen credit card. TUFTS, Garth, accompanied Davis during this time.

About 9/5/69, Brenda McCann rented a 1969 Ford with a stolen credit card. With her when the Ford was rented were Paul Watkins, Gypsy, and "Scotty." Some credit cards were taken in a burglary at singer Jack Jones' residence in Sherman Oaks. Watkins stated this burglary was pulled by William Rex Cole. Some of the credit cards were used by Brenda McCann, Gypsy, and Patty; and were used at Bullocks. Also gasoline was purchased with a stolen credit card at a gas station next to Denny's Restaurant, Sand Canyon Road, Saugus.

Watkins said he saw a person known as BARRY, Stanley aka "Lanier," at Barker Ranch about 9/2/69, driving a 3/4 ton Chevrolet truck, brown or gold in color. Barry lives in Kingman, Arizona, can be contacted by phone #753-5005. Watkins said he had heard that Barry had been killed for an unknown reason. Watkins last saw Barry wearing black pants and a white shirt.

(Note: Stanley "Lanier" Berry was Robert "Bob" Berry's brother. Bob Berry married Juanita Wildebush. He was not killed. He passed May 10, 2009 and was living in Las Vegas.)

Regarding the rumor that a person known as "Shorty" had been killed, Watkins said Manson told him that Tufts had killed "Shorty". Watkins also stated that Tufts told him that he had killed "Shorty", that some of the girls dug a hole and put the body in it. Also at the site where Shorty was buried were Tufts, Manson, Bruce Davis, Tex Montgomery. Watkins did not know the location of burial site.

Watkins was asked to identify some of the members of the family. He stated that Ruth Ann SMITH is from Ukiah, and is 16 years old. Her father is Dean Moorehouse who is an ex-preacher from Ukiah, and was recently arrested for possession of LSD. Her maiden name is MOOREHOUSE, but recently she married a man named HUEVELHURST, who is in Hawaii.

 


Kathleen Wright's true name is thought to be SCHER or SHEARER and is from Woodland Hills. She used to live at Happy Trail, Topanga with Bob Beausoliel. She is 25 years old.

Diane Bluestein, aka "Snake," is her true name. Her mother works for Summer Hills School in San Fernando Valley. She is 16 years old, and lives in Canoga Park.

Leslie Sankston is from San Jose and came to Southern California with Bob Beausoliel.

Carol Matthews is 16 years old and is from the Glendale area.

Lynette Fromme is from the Huntington Beach area.

Interview with Watkins concluded at 3:30 p.m., on 10/15/69.

At 4:00 p.m., on 10/15/69, writers interviewed BARTELL, Susan Phyllis; who was only person of the group who had a driver's license showing her true identity. She stated she has been with the family only since about June 1969. She owns a 1958 Olds, #LTF 188, which was impounded by CHP. Found in her car was a Gulf credit card in name of J.C. Relles, #60-720-063-4. Bartell states this card was given to her in Sylmar by a WEBB, Bob. This card was reported as a stolen card to Gulf main office in Texas on 10/8/69. Bartell said she bought gas in Ridgecrest and signed the purchase receipt. She also bought gas in Barstow signing the purchase receipt. Bartell stated the card was used at the Holiday Inn on 10/12/69 in Barstow, purchase receipt signed by GILLIES, Catherine; she signed as RELLES, Penelope, with address in Mission Hills, California.

Next writers interviewed SCHWARM, Mary Ann. She stated she came to California from Portland, Oregon, about 9-15-69. She drove down from Portland in a red car, unknown make, with Vern THOMPSON, William Rex COLE, and Ed BAILEY. They all lived at 1109 W. Victory, Burbank, from 9-21-69 to 10-4-69, then they went to Death Valley.

SCHWARM said she rode from Burbank to Goler Wash in a rented white truck. She said Duane, Denny and COLE took turns driving the truck. Upon arriving at Goler Wash, the truck became stuck in the sand and was abandoned, later impounded by CHP.

SCHWARM said that on 10-4-69 Vern THOMPSON and Ed BAILEY took all her clothing, and left the residence at 1109 Victory, Burbank.

SCHWARM said that other persons followed the rented truck to Goler Wash in a 1958 Oldsmobile.

At this point in the interview, SCHWARM was shown some papers found in Bartell’s 1958 Ols, and SCHWARM then admitted her true name was VON AHN, Diane Marie; dob 11-16-50, and that she was a runaway from a probation department facility at 3543 South-East Belmont, Portland, Oregon. She left the facility 9-15-69.

At 9:00 pm, 10-15-69, writers interviewed COLE, William Rex; who was booked as HAMIC, David Lee. COLE was semi-cooperative during the interview. He stated he formerly lived at 1109 Victory Blvd., Burbank, with Duane SCHWARM. COLE said he formerly worked at Spahn Ranch, Chatsworth. When questioned if he knew anyone named “Shorty” at Spahn Ranch, COLE said he knew Donald SHEA who married a colored dancer in Las Vegas about two months ago. She owns an unknown type compact car.

COLE was then released by Inyo County Sheriff’s Department, as they had dropped their charges.

At 10:00 pm writers interviewed Bruce DAVIS who was uncooperative, would not answer any questions. A partial handwriting card was completed by DAVIS. This handwriting card was prepared for Agent Michaels, Alcohol, Firearms, Tax Unit, L.A. Office, as Mr. Michael’s office is preparing a case against DAVIS, who purchased a weapon signing forms in his alias name of Jack MC MILLAN.

At 10:40 pm, 10-15-69, Madeline COTTAGE, while being released by Inyo County Sheriff’s Department, told jailer she wanted to have charges filed on her as she helped steal the dune buggy with “Yankee Go Home” written on the rear of it. Writers then spoke to COTTAGE, and she again made same statement.

 

 The original report

48 comments:

Buntline said...

Well done, Deb. Fantastic stuff yet again.

J-Dog said...

Where is everybody?
Yes, Deb, I am a lurker who benefits gretly from your in-depth research.
Thank you so much for all you've done.

starviego said...

Great work as always, Deb.

Watkins said that most of the family lived at 31062 Mulholland Highway, Malibu Station area, in February 1969.

I wonder if this was the residence referred to as the "Iron Butterfly house?"

DebS said...

J-Dog, thank you! I don't know where everyone has gone, it's been very slow lately. While I understand that much of what I've been posting has been related in books and other venues we haven't seen the actual documents which provide context and other details that might have been overlooked.

Or maybe everyone is simply tired of the Manson Saga.

Medium Patty said...

I'd posted a comment this week but it must've been eaten by Blogger.
Thank you Deb, you are knocking it out of the park with this ongoing cache of documents. Thanks so much for sharing them

D. said...

It's funny they had to mention where the girls got food from.

The Diggers in SF had material on how to dumpster dive. Communes like the Kaliflower commune would encourage it's members to do the same and go on wellfare and pool their food stamps. But with this case, "Manson had them eating out of garbage pails".

Not a single girl in this saga ever said Manson used violent force to force any of them into sexual acts. Poston had that weirdo Crockett in his ear and was pissed off that Manson more of less abandoned him because Charlie actually didn't like followers or idiots who hung on his nuts the way he did. He was just a fool that Moorehouse brought around.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

Not a single girl in this saga ever said Manson used violent force to force any of them into sexual acts

I guess Dianne Lake talking about her anal rape by Charlie doesn't count.
It is simultaneously amazing and disturbing how easily one can dismiss actions that show a clear pattern over many years with Manson, in order to uphold his sainthood and innocence that simply do not exist.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

It's funny they had to mention where the girls got food from

On the other hand, it wasn't exactly something one saw commonly in young females. So it would be something of a departure and therefore, a talking point.

Torque said...

Deb, great stuff as always. I appreciate also your posting of original documents; they are gold. Yes, I've picked up the vibe that comment traffic has slowed down. I attribute this to Thanksgiving travel. I don't think for one minute that people are tired of the Manson saga.

shoegazer said...

Or maybe everyone is simply tired of the Manson Saga.

I don't think that's it, Deb; TLB is a lot like the Titanic in that it "has legs". It has an odd mix of tragedy/glamour/sleeze that's essentially timeless, like the Black Dahlia, or maybe the way the current U of I student murder case is shaping up (but less so).

I think that it's simply an understandable lack of new *primary* material, which your work alleviates and is of great value.

Otherwise we're left with quibbling over things like aliases used by witnesses, etc. It's this level of triviality that's the absolute bane of TLB--why it's not likely to be taken seriously outside of these groups.

You routinely have posters who seem unable to understand the difference between the possible, the improbable, and the likely. They get hung up on "well, it could have happened...it's not impossible, so...". If one insists on this, you have an ever-expanding, not ever narrowing, inquiry.

Thinking that way, we'll never narrow our focus and get closer to the *likely* events.

But maybe that's not important to many here. Maybe the personally constructed myth is most important.

grimtraveller said...

J-Dog said:

Where is everybody?

Living life.

Sometimes, retreading the same aspects of a particular subject reaches that point of diminishing returns.

Also, it's an interesting exercise just lurking to see what ground others will cover, when you've been used to covering large areas of ground over a period of years.

Then there is another aspect ¬> many of the recent documents uncovered and posted are brilliant....but....they simply bump up what many have concluded over many years anyway, so there's not a great deal to say. The actual documents aren't really what is interesting about the case. They play their part and it's good to have them, but major debates and discussion have already taken place in their absence. And they were great fun !

shoegazer said:

I think that it's simply an understandable lack of new *primary* material, which your work alleviates and is of great value

You are actually one of a tiny number that approaches this case from the perspective you do. Most people I've encountered on the various sites aren't too interested in where a car might have been parked unless it somehow bleeds into undoing the versions of the stories the perps or Bugliosi have put forth. And you're right, it has the potential to utterly trivialize TLB if one is not stuck on the evidence.
But the reality is that a significant number of people are interested in a variety of aspects and that, for many years, has kept debate and enquiry flowing. I suspect we're all dissatisfied with some elements of what we find in these discussions, but on the other hand, there will be things we all find to be worthwhile. All of us have to chew the meat and spit out the bones....

DebS said...

shoegazer and grim, I understand what both of you are saying. Some people love the documents, like myself, and others would rather pontificate based on whatever they have recently read. There are those who have a theory and no matter what the evidence shows they will continue to shoehorn that theory into a shoe that doesn't fit.

I will continue to post the documents, I still have quite a few more, I went to the trouble to get them and they serve no purpose if they lie dormant in my laptop.

shoegazer said...

Deb, please DO post the docs!

The way I approach the TBL topic (really, I am interested in the Ceilo crime scene probably one order of magnitude more than any other aspect) is that I'll take any primary source, and any secondary source that is properly vetted I'll at least consider.

Reading the after-the-fact books and interviews are interesting in a hearsay way, but not worthy of basing any serious hypotheses on if they differ substantially from the primary/vetted second hand sources.

It's fun, I know, and it's what the blog is for, but only the stuff that you and a very few others post seems satisfying.

DebS said...

OT, Ivan Pugh has posted on his FB page that his father, Bobby Beausoleil, has had a lung removed. No reason was given for why it was removed and Ivan seems to be having problems trying to speak with his father to find out what is going on.

Bobby is still at the California Medical Facility in Vacaville.

Vera Dreiser said...

Deb S: I went to the trouble to get them and they serve no purpose if they lie dormant in my laptop.

Vera: "YOU went to the trouble"?! Really, bitch?
Maybe now'd be a good time to thank O'Neill who spent 20 (unpaid) years literally freeing up every doc you're posting here, not just from the Inyo County DA's office, but from U of Nevada (the Fowles files and THAT PICTURE you headline this post with), the FBI (Massaro and Rostua), the LA DAs and all your other posts about Tenerelli, Watson tapes, ad nauseam, which wouldn't have been known about without our guy's tireless efforts. But nah, you'd rather just rag him because your fuckin jealous.
Got that off my tits, now I can have my morning martini and wait for porky and grim and the other losers boring ass replies. Snort, oink, snore.

DebS said...

Stay Classy, Vera!

Vera Dreiser said...

Stay ungrateful, Deb S!

Peter said...

Stay in school.

cielodrivecom said...

Vera, What did he free up from the LADA?

Vera Dreiser said...

Everything he got to copy when Sandy Gibbons gave him access to their files. Bug's interview notes and so on, Mr. sexy man.

Cielodrive.com said...

Where can I see those files?

Gorodish said...

At this point, I think it's fairly obvious that "Vera Dreiser" is Tom O'Neill.

DebS said...

Gorodish, Bingo! I agree.

Vera Dreiser said...

Vera wishes she were.
But Mr. Sexy Man check his instagram where they are. And in the book baby.

D. said...

Excuse me Vera, but it was Gina Judd who dug up the stuff on Massaro and Rostau. Tom just scanned these various sites and groups lifting things quietly and then put out a book of sheer nonsense with entire chapters dedicated to people who have nothing to do with any of it, like Dr. Jolly West and even still, he doesn't know half about Massaro and Rostau. The Tex tapes? Sanders ended a chapter of The Family discussing them in 1972.

Reeve Whitson "posed a hippie" and there was a "hands off" on Manson? Paul Krassner wrote the exactly same line, only with another person in place of Whitson who sued Rolling Stone for his writing it because it was sheer bullshit.

Massaro and Rostau were two minor players in something much bigger. That you know nothing about and neither does O'Neill despite his claims of having talked to Massaro directly.

orwhut said...

Deb,
IMHO, you're doing exactly what a true crime writer should when posting material. By providing the actual source material you're showing that you aren't publishing unproven theories. For too many years I've been reading "facts" by some "authority" giving no other reason to believe them but that "they" claim they"re true. Please keep up the good work.
Whut

D. said...

BTW Grim. I don't believe most of what comes from Dianne Lake. She nor others like Brooks Poston or even Paul Watkins shouldn't have even been allowed to testify since they had zero real knowledge or insight into the crimes. Their testimony was WM3 level bullshit and was used to simply character assassinate Charles Manson, whom they all bore a grudge against.

You can't write a book of which the target audience is man hating women without a good sodomy story, complete with cinematic lines like "I'm going to show you how we do it in prison!". How else will people like H. Allegra Lansing find it tickling? Did it happen in a van? Or by a creek in the woods? Tell me, since her retelling of it always changes, especially since her hack ghost writer, Deborah Herman wrote it. Who's goal was to be, as she put it "the next Joan Didion or Truman Capote". That says it all.

shoegazer said...

As per orwhut, Deb's material is the only stuff that matters anymore, else you slide into the sorts of catty exchanges we've read today, and which are why no one outside of these forums takes any of this--which at its best is detailed popular history in the truest, purest sense of the term--as anything but cult worship.

I post into this group under a handle that I use nowhere else because, sadly, such obnoxious posters make me ashamed of my participation here.

grimtraveller said...

VD said:

now I can have my morning martini and wait for porky and grim and the other losers boring ass replies

Awww, ain't that cute. The president of the international house of fandom faithfully awaiting my latest pronouncement !

"Continuez d'attendre Dora !"

"استمر في الانتظار درة !"

"Warte weiter Dora !"

"继续等待朵拉 !"

Vera Dreiser said...

Deb. S:
LOL, LOL, LOL.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

I don't believe most of what comes from Dianne Lake

As I was walking to work on Thursday morning, that very thought passed through my mind. That you'd say that, that is.
In reality, there isn't a woman on the planet that you'd acknowledge as telling the truth if she said Charlie used force or coercion on them to extract sex either for himself or someone else, despite plenty of testimony and stories to the contrary.
So it's always going to be something of a non-conversation between us, isn't it ?

She nor others like Brooks Poston or even Paul Watkins shouldn't have even been allowed to testify since they had zero real knowledge or insight into the crimes

Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm still somewhat surprised that an intelligent thinker like yourself repeatedly falls down on something so simple to understand, just because you won't look beyond your bias and the story you want to uphold.
Poston, Watkins, Lake and others were crucial to the case for the simple reason that they provided circumstantial evidence. Whether they had direct knowledge of the crimes is as relevant as whether or not they liked to eat chickpeas.
You know the prosecution alleged a certain thought process under which aegis the crimes were committed. To say that the 3 you mentioned "shouldn't have even been allowed to testify" is a foolhardy statement. I have no problem with you thinking they were bullshitters or that they were duped by the cunning Dark Lord of Due Process; you can think what you like ~ as long as it makes sense. And your notion doesn't. That's how complex cases like TLB are put together.

Their testimony was WM3 level bullshit and was used to simply character assassinate Charles Manson

I shouldn't laugh, but I am...
That's got to be one of the hardest jobs in the world, character-assassinating Charles Manson.
Real character assassination would have been to say what a lovely, wholesome, law-abiding bloke he was ! 😁

whom they all bore a grudge against

Dianne Lake had good cause to. And many have thought that for 40 years or more before her book came out. Decades before she'd even heard of Deborah Herman.
As for Watkins and Poston, well, sometimes, when someone that you once hero-worshipped turns out to have feet of clay, it's not an unusual reaction to bear a grudge, just check out the Beatles' "Sexy Sadie."
Bearing a grudge doesn't automatically equate to everything you say that's negative about the person being a lie.

orwhut said...

Does anyone know how many copies of Dianne Lake's book were sold or how to find out?

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

Charles Manson, whom they all bore a grudge against

I'd say be very careful going down the road of emphasizing grudges....
Charles Manson held a major grudge against much of society in America in general. Personally, I think that his holding a grudge in no way invalidates what he had to say about the prevailing society. I think he had a series of good points and there were many that completely agreed with him. He knew hypocrisy when he saw it, having experienced it for so many years.
So his having a grudge didn't mean that he lied about much of American society as he saw it.
He still held the grudge, however.
The same goes for the 3 that you mentioned, Poston, Watkins and Lake. None of them testified that Manson was part of the troupe that committed the murders. They simply gave important background information that circumstantially connected Charlie to the conspiracy. And it wasn't them that did this, but the prosecution.

shoegazer said:

I post into this group under a handle that I use nowhere else because, sadly, such obnoxious posters make me ashamed of my participation here

I simply don't allow someone else's behaviour to define who I am. I can't be blamed for what someone else does. I gamble that people reading these pages will make up their own minds and much as I might like to influence their thought process, it's out of my hands.

D. said...

I don't think Charlie's "grudge against of much of society in America" was any greater than the rest of the country, who were burning flags, draft cars, SS cards, brawling with police, cheering the gun toting Black Panthers and so on. Or people like Jerry Rubin telling people to kill their mom's and dads.

We're talking personal grudges. Watkins was riding Charlie's coat tails hoping the record deal would come through, then Beausoleil came along and he got jealous.

grimtraveller said...

D. said:

I don't think Charlie's "grudge against of much of society in America" was any greater than the rest of the country, who were burning flags, draft cars, SS cards, brawling with police, cheering the gun toting Black Panthers and so on. Or people like Jerry Rubin telling people to kill their mom's and dads

I agree.
That doesn't get Charlie off the hook though. People express their grudges in a myriad of different ways.

We're talking personal grudges

Every grudge is, at some level, personal. A grudge is a grudge is a grudge. It can be personal, it can be aimed at a faceless corporation, it can be towards an entire people or race of people or nationality or political party or government or members of staff in a school or one's parents etc, etc, etc. Groups can also be co~opted into a pre-existing grudge, at which point it becomes personal for those individuals that make up the group.

Watkins was riding Charlie's coat tails hoping the record deal would come through, then Beausoleil came along and he got jealous

Well, as I've never heard anyone involved forward this suggestion, I can't comment, other than to say it sounds plausible but not probable.

grimtraveller said...

orwhut said:

Does anyone know how many copies of Dianne Lake's book were... sold?

There's 43 for sale right now on Amazon. 31 are used ! 😩

jempud said...

J-Dog said... Where is everybody?

Don't confuse absence of evidence with evidence of absence. I'm sure that many longtime followers of the various Manson blogs still check out the posts without feeling the need to comment on them.

And yes, Tom O'Neill is Vera Dreiser .... I thought this was common knowledge (?)

Gorodish said...

Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston were fountains of info in this report. Watkins always came across as articulate, but I am amazed at the detail in Poston's interview. He was supposedly one spaced out dude before he left for Barker in 1968. I get that he had spent the last 8 months being "deprogrammed" by Paul Crockett, but I am still impressed with the amount of detail he gave.

ColScott said...

yeah typos because blogger doesn't allow corrections


*information
*or the DA


I wish you had proofread your fucking book Tom Tom the Lying Scum

G. Greene-Whyte said...

Oh snap!

Vera Dreiser said...

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Did Vera call Deb just a bitch or a fucking bitch? Is it too late to amend it now Porky?
xoxoxo,
V
CC: Tom

grimtraveller said...

Back on Aug 16th, VD said:

Much as this old gal/hag hates to agree with David..and Porky Pig,.. Vera agrees that ONeills book broke no new ground whatsoever and needs to be consecrated to the dust bin of shitty trash history

So....was this a ruse to "cue the defence" ? 😒 🥴

ColScott said...

typos

*spent the advance
*one"s

Vera Dreiser said...

Oh, for fucking (Deb's) sake, Vera has to wake up to this cattletrap from Porky again? Vera thought she was Robin Olson, or so brilliant col accused her, but she'll take O'Neill, if that makes him jollier. And she thought SHE was obsessed with Tom O but it sure looks like somebody else has a bigger (but V guessing smaller, hence the never-ending spit-sputtering rage) hard-on for him. Screen capping (whatever the fuck that means) all his comments? Well Vera has her priorities so won't go down those hiney holes but shes pretty sure Cols posted loads and loads more hateful shit, calling chickies (My Deborah for starters) a c***, pig and so on and so on and so on and where's goddamed my gin?. That language don't bother your V at all as she's got a pretty pleasant one herself and is pretty goddamed pleased with it. Wanna see, my sweeties?
xxoxoxo
Tom, I mean Vera, I mean Robin, I mean Quent

shoegazer said...

...and a very Merry Christmas to us all!

Tony said...

Your language is appalling

Tony said...

Who rattled your cage? there's no need to be nasty and talk like that, haven't seen you on here before and it's not a good first impression 😔

Jay said...

great information and a very well written post